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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    No, consciousness, which is necessary for all of this, is not the obvious result of blind evolutionary forces.
    Yes it is. Consciousness is dependent upon the action of the evolved living brain. And our decision-making processes are grounded in the memories and experiences stored in the neurons and pathways of the physical, living brain. All mammals and many other creatures have evolved neurological substrates complex enough to support consciousness – not just the human animal.



    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Tassman View Post

      Yes it is. Consciousness is dependent upon the action of the evolved living brain. And our decision-making processes are grounded in the memories and experiences stored in the neurons and pathways of the physical, living brain. All mammals and many other creatures have evolved neurological substrates complex enough to support consciousness – not just the human animal.
      Nope, that was not the question. Show when and how the evolutionary process created consciousness. The vast majority of creatures survive just fine without self-awareness. So it is not necessary for survival. And I don't know what you mean by other animals - does a monkey have an inner life, experience and thoughts as a human? How would you know?

      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post

        Nope, that was not the question. Show when and how the evolutionary process created consciousness.
        Consciousness was not “created” – that would imply a ‘Creator’ and there is NO good reason to think such an entity exists. Consciousness, as with everything else in the evolutionary process, evolved via Natural Selection with the selective enhancement of specific qualities (tool-making skills, language, etc.) to better survive.

        The vast majority of creatures survive just fine without self-awareness. So it is not necessary for survival.
        It may not be “necessary” but self-reflection and consciousness is a survival advantage nevertheless.

        And I don't know what you mean by other animals
        Humans are apes – 'Great Apes'.

        https://australian.museum/learn/science/human-evolution/humans-are-apes-great-apes/

        - does a monkey have an inner life, experience and thoughts as a human?
        The higher animals, such as the chimpanzees experience an inner life not dissimilar (albeit, less complex) than ours.

        https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/oct/06/apes-can-guess-what-others-are-thinking-just-like-humans

        How would you know?
        How would you know that don’t – there is abundant evidence that they do?

        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • #34
          Self reflection/awareness is an evolved survival mechanism?

          I suppose that could be argued if we're talking survival of the entire species. Surely the ability to self reflect upon one's own existence, is the basis for empathy. And where there is empathy, populations will swell. The species or race itself, in this case, the human race has survived through empathy. If the empathy did not evolve, humans would have gone extinct.


          Just taking a stab at it here...from an evolutionary view.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Machinist View Post
            Self reflection/awareness is an evolved survival mechanism?

            I suppose that could be argued if we're talking survival of the entire species. Surely the ability to self reflect upon one's own existence, is the basis for empathy. And where there is empathy, populations will swell. The species or race itself, in this case, the human race has survived through empathy. If the empathy did not evolve, humans would have gone extinct.


            Just taking a stab at it here...from an evolutionary view.
            No, it is not necessary for survival. The vast majority of creatures, even living in community, do not possess self-awareness.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Tassman View Post

              Consciousness was not “created” – that would imply a ‘Creator’ and there is NO good reason to think such an entity exists. Consciousness, as with everything else in the evolutionary process, evolved via Natural Selection with the selective enhancement of specific qualities (tool-making skills, language, etc.) to better survive.
              That is an assertion, I asked why and how consciousness came about beside asserting that nature did it. And I never said that some creatures don't have a degree of self-awareness. Many creatures have opposable thumbs - so? That does not make human consciousness any more explainable, back to Sam Harris...

              https://samharris.org/the-mystery-of-consciousness/



              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post

                No, it is not necessary for survival. The vast majority of creatures, even living in community, do not possess self-awareness.
                Humans are the least equipped to live in nature. Self awareness, which leads to empathy, was necessary for humans to survive. It was not necessary for other species. It could have had something to do with the fact that humans don't have the physical features necessary for survival on their own, such as claws, big gorilla muscles, fangs, the ability to squirt hot boiling water from their abdomens, etc.


                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post

                  No, it is not necessary for survival. The vast majority of creatures, even living in community, do not possess self-awareness.
                  Legs aren't necessary for survival. Lots of creatures don't have legs.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                    Humans are the least equipped to live in nature. Self awareness, which leads to empathy, was necessary for humans to survive. It was not necessary for other species. It could have had something to do with the fact that humans don't have the physical features necessary for survival on their own, such as claws, big gorilla muscles, fangs, the ability to squirt hot boiling water from their abdomens, etc.

                    You are missing the point read read my last link to Tass. And BTW other species use the community to survive like wolves, with out any noticeable empathy. So empathy is not necessary to be strong, and survive.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seer View Post

                      You are missing the point read read my last link to Tass. And BTW other species use the community to survive like wolves, with out any noticeable empathy. So empathy is not necessary to be strong, and survive.
                      My point is (again, playing devils advocate here), is that empathy was not necessary for the survival of wolves. It was however necessary for the survival of humans.

                      That just seems like a likely argument any evolutionist would make.

                      Empathy exists, and any evolutionist is required to maintain that it is an evolved feature. The only thing they could say as to why it evolved is because it aided in the survival of humans (not wolves, elephants, kangaroos, etc)...just humans...specifically humans.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                        My point is (again, playing devils advocate here), is that empathy was not necessary for the survival of wolves. It was however necessary for the survival of humans.

                        That just seems like a likely argument any evolutionist would make.

                        Empathy exists, and any evolutionist is required to maintain that it is an evolved feature. The only thing they could say as to why it evolved is because it aided in the survival of humans (not wolves, elephants, kangaroos, etc)...just humans...specifically humans.
                        Did you read my link? And to have genuine empathy you would first need consciousness. So consciousness gives rise to empathy, that does explain why self awareness in the first place.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by seer View Post

                          Did you read my link? And to have genuine empathy you would first need consciousness. So consciousness gives rise to empathy, that does explain why self awareness in the first place.
                          I just didn't think the wolf comparison was valid: wolves evolved without empathy (or self awareness) and their kind survived ok, there fore humans wouldn't have needed empathy or self awareness to survive.

                          To me, that is like saying :

                          wolves evolved ok without quills, therefore porcupines didn't need them either.



                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                            I just didn't think the wolf comparison was valid: wolves evolved without empathy (or self awareness) and their kind survived ok, there fore humans wouldn't have needed empathy or self awareness to survive.

                            To me, that is like saying :

                            wolves evolved ok without quills, therefore porcupines didn't need them either.
                            The thing is consciousness is not like any physical qualities necessary for survival. Read the link.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seer View Post

                              That is an assertion, I asked why and how consciousness came about beside asserting that nature did it. And I never said that some creatures don't have a degree of self-awareness. Many creatures have opposable thumbs - so? That does not make human consciousness any more explainable,
                              There is no need to claim any more than “nature did it” regardless how little we understand the process at this stage. It is reasonable to assume that consciousness, as with everything else in the evolutionary process, evolved via Natural Selection with the selective enhancement of specific natural qualities among us and many of the higher animals.

                              "According to anthropologists, many animals have a kind of consciousness, but only humans and the great apes are self-conscious. Apparently, the big and complex brains of humans and apes, which may have evolved for other tasks, blossomed with an added sense of self"..

                              https://www.livescience.com/4908-hat...ciousness.html
                              Last edited by Tassman; 10-18-2021, 01:13 AM.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                                There is no need to claim any more than “nature did it” regardless how little we understand the process at this stage. It is reasonable to assume that consciousness, as with everything else in the evolutionary process, evolved via Natural Selection with the selective enhancement of specific natural qualities among us and many of the higher animals.


                                The problem, however, is that no evidence for consciousness exists in the physical world.

                                Physical events are simply mute as to whether it is “like something” to be what they are. The only thing in this universe that attests to the existence of consciousness is consciousness itself; the only clue to subjectivity, as such, is subjectivity. Absolutely nothing about a brain, when surveyed as a physical system, suggests that it is a locus of experience. Were we not already brimming with consciousness ourselves, we would find no evidence of it in the physical universe—nor would we have any notion of the many experiential states that it gives rise to. The painfulness of pain, for instance, puts in an appearance only in consciousness. And no description of C-fibers or pain-avoiding behavior will bring the subjective reality into view.



                                If we look for consciousness in the physical world, all we find are increasingly complex systems giving rise to increasingly complex behavior—which may or may not be attended by consciousness. The fact that the behavior of our fellow human beings persuades us that they are (more or less) conscious does not get us any closer to linking consciousness to physical events. Is a starfish conscious? A scientific account of the emergence of consciousness would answer this question. And it seems clear that we will not make any progress by drawing analogies between starfish behavior and our own. It is only in the presence of animals sufficiently like ourselves that our intuitions about (and attributions of) consciousness begin to crystallize. Is there “something that it is like” to be a cocker spaniel? Does it feel its pains and pleasures? Surely it must. How do we know? Behavior, analogy, parsimony.



                                Most scientists are confident that consciousness emerges from unconscious complexity. We have compelling reasons for believing this, because the only signs of consciousness we see in the universe are found in evolved organisms like ourselves. Nevertheless, this notion of emergence strikes me as nothing more than a restatement of a miracle. To say that consciousness emerged at some point in the evolution of life doesn’t give us an inkling of how it could emerge from unconscious processes, even in principle.


                                https://samharris.org/the-mystery-of-consciousness/
                                Last edited by seer; 10-18-2021, 08:06 AM.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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