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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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The Argument From Reason...

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    Which is?
    Your attempts to use philosophy, logic, reason, concepts of reality to support your own preconceived theological beliefs.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      Your attempts to use philosophy, logic, reason, concepts of reality to support your own preconceived theological beliefs.
      And? I'm a Christian for goodness sake and that is an Apologetic board...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        And? I'm a Christian for goodness sake and that is an Apologetic board...
        You should know by now that the only person entitled to have preconceived religious beliefs is H_A.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          You should know by now that the only person entitled to have preconceived religious beliefs is H_A.
          I forgot - mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa....
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post

            And? I'm a Christian for goodness sake and that is an Apologetic board...
            You appear to have confirmed my underlying suspicion.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              You appear to have confirmed my underlying suspicion.
              Is your subconscious deluding you again?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                That is just stupid Tass, it is not only true for me it is a fact, a historical fact if you will.
                If your morning tea is verified by others then it is an objective historical fact not an independent “subjective truth”, separate from the physical, material brain.

                And having the ability to prove it to anyone else is immaterial to the truth of the matter. Many of our encounters in life can not be 'substantiated by evidence' but that does not make then less real or true.
                So, how do you determine the “truth” – by ‘feelings’ alone?






                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                  If your morning tea is verified by others then it is an objective historical fact not an independent “subjective truth”, separate from the physical, material brain.
                  That again is nonsense. The act happened, in real time, whether I could prove it to anyone else. If three other people witnessed it their view is still subjective to them. Whether just me, or others, witnessed the act make no difference concerning whether the act happened or not. The act itself is independent of verification, or lack thereof.



                  So, how do you determine the “truth” – by ‘feelings’ alone?
                  By personal experience, just as you do.

                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post

                    That again is nonsense. The act happened, in real time, whether I could prove it to anyone else. If three other people witnessed it their view is still subjective to them. Whether just me, or others, witnessed the act make no difference concerning whether the act happened or not. The act itself is independent of verification, or lack thereof.
                    Indeed. It is historically verifiable. But your argument goes further. You claim that a purely subjective experience is “as true as any verifiable" scientific discovery”. It is NOT.

                    By personal experience, just as you do.
                    But without verification there is no means of determining the “truth” of your personal subjective experience compared to that of another’s, whose subjective experience conflicts with yours.


                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • From a Theistic, "meta" perspective (if you will), then what events actually happen, even subjective experiences, are going to be "true". If you're making objective verification a prerequisite before something is "true", then obviously some things are never going to be proven.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                        Indeed. It is historically verifiable. But your argument goes further. You claim that a purely subjective experience is “as true as any verifiable" scientific discovery”. It is NOT.
                        Of course the fact of my tea drinking is as true as anything verified by science. It is a FACT, and it is TRUE. It is not partially a fact, and it is not partially true.



                        But without verification there is no means of determining the “truth” of your personal subjective experience compared to that of another’s, whose subjective experience conflicts with yours.
                        But verification, or not, does not change the FACT of the matter.

                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post

                          Of course the fact of my tea drinking is as true as anything verified by science. It is a FACT, and it is TRUE.
                          Your “tea drinking” is NOT “as true as anything verified by science” unless it is verified by some sort of evidence. Hypothetically, it could be delusional, or a false memory etc. etc. etc.

                          But verification, or not, does not change the FACT of the matter.
                          If unsubstantiated, the only “FACT” is in your own mind.

                          You have yet to explain how you determine the “truth” of your personal subjective experience when another’s subjective experience conflicts with yours.


                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • There is a difference between Truth and Troof.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                              Your “tea drinking” is NOT “as true as anything verified by science” unless it is verified by some sort of evidence. Hypothetically, it could be delusional, or a false memory etc. etc. etc.
                              Now that is one extraordinary claim. Assuming that the event actually happened, it is as true as anything that science can verify: one of a very large number of types of event that cannot be verified by the scientific method.



                              If unsubstantiated, the only “FACT” is in your own mind.
                              Come now - facts (particularly where events are concerned) frequently exist independently of substantiation. And there's the whole realm of "anecdotal evidence" to consider, with eyewitness testimony being relegated to the status of "anecdotal evidence" as a means to discredit "eyewitness testimony" all too frequently, where it should properly be reserved for second or third person reports. Nor should it be forgotten that the scientific method actually assesses eyewitness testimony and even anecdotal evidence to formulate hypotheses.

                              You have yet to explain how you determine the “truth” of your personal subjective experience when another’s subjective experience conflicts with yours.
                              There is an obligation on the person who challenges the claim to produce evidence in support of the challenge. Should a person alleging that a claim is false (your aforementioned delusional, or a false memory etc. etc. etc.) there would need to be some reasonable grounds established before the claim should be rejected. The reports of initial responses in Europe to the descriptions of the platypus being a salutary cautionary tale.
                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                              "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                                Your “tea drinking” is NOT “as true as anything verified by science” unless it is verified by some sort of evidence. Hypothetically, it could be delusional, or a false memory etc. etc. etc.
                                How is the tea drinking less true than anything else? It isn't. An old bear dies in the woods, it turns to dust, no witnesses - that remains a fact despite the lack of evidence.


                                If unsubstantiated, the only “FACT” is in your own mind.

                                You have yet to explain how you determine the “truth” of your personal subjective experience when another’s subjective experience conflicts with yours.
                                Everything you know comes through personal experience Tass, there is nothing else. Ten scientists can tell you A, but A is still filtered through your subjective personal experience.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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