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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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The Argument From Reason...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Stoic View Post

    I prefer a more complete version of Darwin's quote:

    "Nevertheless you have expressed my inward conviction, though far more vividly and clearly than I could have done that the Universe is not the result of chance. But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" (emphasis mine)

    It's pretty obvious that what Darwin was doubting was his conviction that the universe is not the result of chance.
    He is questioning all convictions. Not just the one about the universe...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post

      He is questioning all convictions. Not just the one about the universe...
      Some convictions are more questionable than others.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Stoic View Post

        Some convictions are more questionable than others.
        According to his statement I don't see how you could determine which was which...
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by seer View Post

          According to his statement I don't see how you could determine which was which...
          Fortunately, I don't need his statement to tell me how to decide.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

            Fortunately, I don't need his statement to tell me how to decide.
            Well you brought him up...
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Well you brought him up...
              Yes, in response to your incredulity about the non-rational producing the rational.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                Yes, in response to your incredulity about the non-rational producing the rational.
                Claiming incredulity tell us nothing about how chemicals can, even in theory, produce propositional content or logical inference.

                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post

                  Claiming incredulity tell us nothing about how chemicals can, even in theory, produce propositional content or logical inference.
                  Since electronics can produce propositional content or logical inference, it doesn't seem so hard to believe that chemicals can.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                    Since electronics can produce propositional content or logical inference, it doesn't seem so hard to believe that chemicals can.
                    But they don't, electrons do no such thing. We do, they only spit out what we programmed in. So computers are not really making rational inferences.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post

                      But they don't, electrons do no such thing. We do, they only spit out what we programmed in. So computers are not really making rational inferences.
                      Obviously, we're never going to agree on this. I find it plausible that we are the result of unguided evolution, and you don't.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        (At this point I expect you to try to shift the burden of proof).
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        I think it's your burden to show the first premise of your argument is true.
                        Well no, that is the whole point. You would have to show how it is possible for chemicals, biology functions and the laws of nature to know of propositions.
                        It's your argument. We don't have to show anything. We just have to note that you haven't supported your first premise at all, and it appears to be false (since computer applications can read maps), so your whole argument has no basis.


                        Last edited by Roy; 10-14-2021, 09:20 AM.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                        Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Roy View Post
                          It's your argument. We don't have to show anything. We just have to note that you haven't supported your first premise at all, and it appears to be false (since computer applications can read maps), so your whole argument has no basis.

                          That makes no sense. They only way that computers can read maps (whatever that means) is because rational agents created then to do so. What are the rational agents that did the same for chemicals...
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                            Obviously, we're never going to agree on this. I find it plausible that we are the result of unguided evolution, and you don't.
                            Yet you keep referencing computers where their ability is merely an extension of our rational abilities: rational = rational. I don't see how that is evidence for the non-rational creating the rational.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Yet you keep referencing computers where their ability is merely an extension of our rational abilities: rational = rational. I don't see how that is evidence for the non-rational creating the rational.
                              I reference computers in order to dispose of the first premise in the argument in your OP. There is nothing non-natural about computers. They are well understood, completely determined, and capable of causing events due to propositional content.

                              I reference evolution when you claim that the non-rational can't create the rational. It's obvious that we are a result of evolution. The claim that our minds are somehow separate, and not a product of evolution, is just ad hoc, motivated reasoning. Keep in mind that if you want to claim that our minds are not the result of evolution, it's your burden of proof.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                                I reference computers in order to dispose of the first premise in the argument in your OP. There is nothing non-natural about computers. They are well understood, completely determined, and capable of causing events due to propositional content.
                                But they are not causing events due to propositional content. They don't do any such thing. Content itself has nothing to do with what a computer spits out. Electrons know nothing about content. Nor do they act on content.

                                I reference evolution when you claim that the non-rational can't create the rational. It's obvious that we are a result of evolution. The claim that our minds are somehow separate, and not a product of evolution, is just ad hoc, motivated reasoning. Keep in mind that if you want to claim that our minds are not the result of evolution, it's your burden of proof.
                                No, consciousness, which is necessary for all of this, is not the obvious result of blind evolutionary forces. If so, how so...

                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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