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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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THE IDENTITY OF GOD THE MOTHER [pneumatology (the holy spirit)]
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostThe fallacy is to think that:
1. God is male, and therefore must be sexually dimorphic;
2. the grammatical gender of a noun or pronoun, means that, what it denotes, must therefore be of the corresponding biological sex.
"The man Christ Jesus" is called "our wisdom", our *sophia*, in NT Greek. *Sophia* is a noun of the feminine grammatical gender. it does not follow that Jesus Christ is therefore female. He wasn't.
One cannot validly argue from the gender of a noun, to the conclusion that what it denotes, must therefore be of the corresponding sex. Because gender and sex have nothing in common. Gender is a grammatical quality, but sex is a quality of certain biological beings - in this case, human mammals. Gender and biology are entirely different entities; neither is a reliable guide to the other. Grammar and biology are entirely different fields of study, and to use terms from either within the other as though such usage were self-evidently valid, is asking for trouble and confusion.
Some NT Greek:
English translation first:
"…29 so that no one may boast in His presence. 30 It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdomfrom God:our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”…"
English translations here: https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/1-30.htm
The 3 nouns in purple are all feminine - yet they are all qualities of Jesus Christ.
Now for the Greek:
....ἐξ αὐτοῦ δὲ ὑμεῖς ἐστὲ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, ὃς ἐγενήθη σοφία ἡμῖν ἀπὸ θεοῦ, δικαιοσύνη τε καὶ ἁγιασμὸς καὶ ἀπολύτρωσις...
See Greek Texts on this page for the various editions of the verse: https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/1-30.htm
Wisdom, righteousness, redemption, are all feminine nouns in Greek; holiness [better: sanctification] is masculine.
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The fallacy is to think that:
1. God is male, and therefore must be sexually dimorphic;
2. the grammatical gender of a noun or pronoun, means that, what it denotes, must therefore be of the corresponding biological sex.
"The man Christ Jesus" is called "our wisdom", our *sophia*, in NT Greek. *Sophia* is a noun of the feminine grammatical gender. it does not follow that Jesus Christ is therefore female. He wasn't.
One cannot validly argue from the gender of a noun, to the conclusion that what it denotes, must therefore be of the corresponding sex. Because gender and sex have nothing in common. Gender is a grammatical quality, but sex is a quality of certain biological beings - in this case, human mammals. Gender and biology are entirely different entities; neither is a reliable guide to the other. Grammar and biology are entirely different fields of study, and to use terms from either within the other as though such usage were self-evidently valid, is asking for trouble and confusion.
Some NT Greek:
English translation first:
"…29 so that no one may boast in His presence. 30 It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdomfrom God:our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”…"
English translations here: https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/1-30.htm
The 3 nouns in purple are all feminine - yet they are all qualities of Jesus Christ.
Now for the Greek:
....ἐξ αὐτοῦ δὲ ὑμεῖς ἐστὲ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, ὃς ἐγενήθη σοφία ἡμῖν ἀπὸ θεοῦ, δικαιοσύνη τε καὶ ἁγιασμὸς καὶ ἀπολύτρωσις...
See Greek Texts on this page for the various editions of the verse: https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/1-30.htm
Wisdom, righteousness, redemption, are all feminine nouns in Greek; holiness [better: sanctification] is masculine.Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 10-06-2021, 09:48 PM.
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Originally posted by System199176 View Post
The Bible says “He” because the Translators choose for their own bias reason to put it as I explained in the post. GOD choose to reveal himself in both masculine and feminine nature and told us to addresses him in both manners.
Greek word for spirit is “pneuma”–a gender neutral word; 3.The Hebrew word for spirit is “ruach”–a feminine word; 4.The Greek pronoun “autos” means “he, she, or it;”n5.Choosing the correct pronoun (he, she, or it) in regards to the word “pneuma” must come from knowing the person we are addressing.
The translators of the Bibles which we all read had all chosen to use “he” or “it,” but never “she.” Even though “she” seemed to be an option
Last edited by tabibito; 10-06-2021, 09:02 PM.
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Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
Could be it's just someone plagiarizing Havrelock.
Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
ETA: unlikely in the extreme that it is Havrelock wot with in the opening sentence the misspelling of pneumatology and it ending
"... the Mothers basic identity and stuff"
"And stuff"Last edited by rogue06; 10-06-2021, 06:08 PM.
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Originally posted by Faber View PostSomething tells me this is Deidre Havrelock.
Nobody likes the guy who sits in the back row at the carnival explaining the magic tricks.
Foundational Teachings- The pronoun “He” used in reference to the Holy Spirit in the New Testament is a translation, but not necessarily the correct translation;
- The Greek word for spirit is “pneuma”–a gender neutral word;
- The Hebrew word for spirit is “ruach”–a feminine word;
- The Greek pronoun “autos” means “he, she, or it;”
- Choosing the correct pronoun (he, she, or it) in regards to the word “pneuma” must come from knowing the person we are addressing.
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And the full moon is not for another two weeks. Gotta be the pot, now that it's legalized.
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Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
I miss BibleWheel.
It's hard to beat someone who insisted that Yahweh is an actual fire-breathing dragon.
Great Googly-moogly! I just Googled Yahweh is an actual fire-breathing dragon and he isn't alone! Several out there speculating on the draconic nature of Yahweh.
If nothing else I believe that confirms the validity of the claim that the strength of the marijuana around today is substantially stronger than what was around in the 70-90s.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
So John uses the masculine pronoun for the Holy Spirit instead of the appropriate neuter pronoun - which makes it very difficult to consider the Holy Spirit to be a mere power or some such or to consider him anything but male - surely the gospel writer meant what he said.
Therefore, the balance can be rejected without cavil by anyone who considers scripture to be authoritative. Regardless of stories about God having no gender, God self-identifies as male, so it would be kind of impolite to refer to him by any pronoun which would deny him the right to declare his gender.
The translators of the Bibles which we all read had all chosen to use “he” or “it,” but never “she.” Even though “she” seemed to be an option
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