I am still clinging to the truth that a thing is identical to itself. Despite it being a trivial truth, it is not nonsense.
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Logic, Therefore God...
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Not at all. One can make sound deductive arguments premised upon the verifiable facts of the natural laws and constants of the universe. This cannot be done with the unverified premise of god’s existence.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by eider View PostUsable? Usable by who?
If and when the universe stops (ie, no energy) it will be a whole lot of matter and might start to attract back to it's center.
And what about other universes? I think God is bigger than one universe. There might be billions of them.
Still gripped by such megalomanias as 'we are so valuable!'??
I know....... you think your god is better than everyone else's gods..... you think only you are right.
And I don't have a deity. I am a tiny part of a deity, together with you and all else.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Good grief man, then present your deductive syllogism!
Hence, it is your task to defend your unsubstantiated logical premise (in # 350) that we cannot have a have a universe apart from God. This is your bald assertion, NOT a verifiable premise. And without a demonstrably true premise you cannot present a sound logical deductive argument.
Or stop your caterwauling
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat other universes?
Well that is the Christian belief.
Well of course I do, or I would not be a Christian. And it beats a clueless, useless deity...
You still have not told us what the attributes of this deity are. You said it was more than just nature - what is this more?
Now......... what are the attributes of your God, please. Try and be logical about this.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Logic is just a set of rules and techniques for distinguishing good reasoning from bad. And I’m not making a formal logic argument, because formal logic has no means to establish a verifiably true premise.
Hence, it is your task to defend your unsubstantiated logical premise (in # 350) that we cannot have a have a universe apart from God. This is your bald assertion, NOT a verifiable premise. And without a demonstrably true premise you cannot present a sound logical deductive argument.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by eider View PostI wrote: There might be billions of them.
Which is not based upon logic, but Faith, I think.
I know....... your God is better than.........
Attributes? Everything you can perceive to exist.
Now......... what are the attributes of your God, please. Try and be logical about this.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
No Tass, now you are avoiding again - you said you could make a deductive argument. So stop hiding - present you syllogism. Or do you realize that you can't and that your position is merely bluster?
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Without any empirical evidence... Got it...
“Research released in 2016 revised the number of galaxies in the observable universe from a previous estimate of 200 billion (2×1011) to a suggested two trillion (2×1012) or more and, overall, as many as an estimated 1×1024 stars (more stars than all the grains of sand on planet Earth). Astronomers estimate there are about 100 thousand million stars in the Milky Way galaxy alone.
And given that there could be as many as 40 billion Earth-like planets orbiting in the habitable zones of Sun-like stars in our galaxy alone, let alone the billions of other galaxies. It is highly likely that some of these planets have resulted in intelligent life”.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard...iously-thought“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Without any empirical evidence... Got it...
As is yours...Your "god" that you can't even describe except to say that it is unaware and not mindful. We could describe a rock that way.
Please read your OP
course, it goes without saying - that a God that is involved with His creation is better than an absent deity. A father who is involved with his children is better than a father who doesn't care. Don't you agree?
this is only nature - but you said that god was not ONLY nature - stop hiding and tell us what this more is.
But here..... Nature rules, and that includes you.
Logic
Stop being deceptive - I listed some of those attributes - and you presented no violation of logic in those attributes. Try to fail harder...
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Not quite:
“Research released in 2016 revised the number of galaxies in the observable universe from a previous estimate of 200 billion (2×1011) to a suggested two trillion (2×1012) or more and, overall, as many as an estimated 1×1024 stars (more stars than all the grains of sand on planet Earth). Astronomers estimate there are about 100 thousand million stars in the Milky Way galaxy alone.
And given that there could be as many as 40 billion Earth-like planets orbiting in the habitable zones of Sun-like stars in our galaxy alone, let alone the billions of other galaxies. It is highly likely that some of these planets have resulted in intelligent life”.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard...iously-thoughtLast edited by seer; 10-06-2021, 06:54 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by eider View PostBecause everything, the known, the unknown, material, immaterial, matter, antimatter.
But here..... Nature rules, and that includes you.
Logic
Stop hiding. Please list the attributes of your God. Avoiding the question is deceptive.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
The issue, as I’ve made clear, is not a ‘deductive argument’ per se. It is that without a demonstrably true premise you cannot present a sound logical deductive argument. And your unsubstantiated logical premise (#350) that “we cannot have a have a universe apart from God” is merely a bald assertion, NOT a verifiable, demonstrably true premise. This as opposed to a sound deductive argument premised upon say, the verifiable laws of physics.
I said:And you can not make a deductive argument that nature alone created this universe
You said: One can verify the existence of the natural world (or components thereof) and thereby establish a true premise from which to make a sound deductive argument.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostMy God is creative, rational, moral, aware, knowledgeable, supremely powerful, transcendent and interactive with the universe He created.
That is just such hogwash.
Take one 'attribute'. Show me where God is so interested in morality. I say that, for example, the laws of Moses were about success through strength, health, numbers, cohesion etc.
Your whole OP is illogical, but let's just pick that one attribute.
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Originally posted by eider View Post
Oh dear. Everybody is a liar. You do so chuck that about. I won't be picking up that dreadful characteristic of yours.
That is just such hogwash.
Take one 'attribute'. Show me where God is so interested in morality. I say that, for example, the laws of Moses were about success through strength, health, numbers, cohesion etc.
Your whole OP is illogical, but let's just pick that one attribute.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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