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Logic, Therefore God...

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    Tass, still waiting for your deductive argument! Yes I made an assumption, but so did you.
    No, I did not make an assumption. The natural laws and constants and the laws of physics that make up our universe can all be tested and deductively verified because, they have premises that can be shown to be true.

    Science works in an intelligible and rational universe - the question is why do we have such a universe?
    An irrational universe governed by magic and miracles could not exist - just as dysfunctional mutations in natural selection cannot survive.

    Why do you think that many scientists see it all as a simulation? That there is an intelligence behind it all?
    Some scientists view the universe as a possible simulation on the basis that it is theoretically possible – hence, if it can be done in theory it may well have been done in reality.

    As for ID very few scientists outside the discredited Discovery Institute think “there is an intelligence (i.e., a god) behind it all”.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post

      But you are not deist according to any known definition - so you just make up your own. Silly...
      For thousands of years Christians have been separating from other churches....... going their own way.
      BUt you like to call my Deism and me 'silly'. Is that right?
      Illogical of you, I think.


      Of course it is faith unless you give a rational explanation as to why you call everything god. Which you haven't done.
      Not so...... even you yourself cannot give a rational explanation of your 'faith', only that God wrote a book about it.


      God doesn't become, God is eternal...
      You don't know how God (everything) happened. Nor do I, a Deist.

      Everything simply 'is', and all is part of the whole, and the whole is God. Logical.
      As your thread title reads:- 'Logic....therefore God'.


      It doesn't matter. Obviously you have no idea what Deism is, so much so you invent your own definition...
      Well.... you seem to think that my Deism should belong within some group or other that you've read about.
      So what church or denomination of Christianity do you identify with, or are you a loner?

      Being a loner isn't bad, you know, so you can tell me. No need to hide.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        God doesn't become, God is eternal...
        Yep.
        Everything, force, and anything else is eternal, is God.

        Wow....... you might be a bit of a Deist. Logical.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by eider View Post
          For thousands of years Christians have been separating from other churches....... going their own way.
          BUt you like to call my Deism and me 'silly'. Is that right?
          Illogical of you, I think.
          I have have attended a number of different denominations and they all agreed on the basics As found in the the ancient Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed. You on the other hand made up a belief out of whole cloth that has nothing to do with Deism.


          Not so...... even you yourself cannot give a rational explanation of your 'faith', only that God wrote a book about it.
          That does not show that your calling the universe god is not also based on faith. Not logic...


          You don't know how God (everything) happened. Nor do I, a Deist.
          But deism states that God created the universe - so by definition you are NOT a deist.

          Everything simply 'is', and all is part of the whole, and the whole is God. Logical.
          As your thread title reads:- 'Logic....therefore God'.
          I will give you one more chance, if you don't answer please leave my thread. Why is it logical to call the whole "god." Why even being the title god into it - be specific or leave...


          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

            No, I did not make an assumption. The natural laws and constants and the laws of physics that make up our universe can all be tested and deductively verified because, they have premises that can be shown to be true.
            But that has nothing to do with why such a rational universe exists in the first place and you certainly have not presented a deductive argument showing that "nature did it."

            An irrational universe governed by magic and miracles could not exist - just as dysfunctional mutations in natural selection cannot survive.
            Of course that doesn't follow. When Christ turned water into wine natural law in the rest of the universe were working normally. When He walked on water gravity was not suspended elsewhere...

            BTW are you still locked in your house by your fascist government?
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post

              I will give you one more chance,
              I don't need another chance from you, seer. We're done.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                But that has nothing to do with why such a rational universe exists in the first place
                You are assuming that the universe exists for a reason. Why would you think that?

                and you certainly have not presented a deductive argument showing that "nature did it."
                The natural laws and constants and the laws of physics explain how the universe functions. These can all be tested and deductively verified because, they have premises that can be shown to be true.

                Conversely, the god hypothesis cannot.

                Of course that doesn't follow. When Christ turned water into wine natural law in the rest of the universe were working normally. When He walked on water gravity was not suspended elsewhere..
                I see. So, the universe is governed by the natural laws and constants except when a purported god intervenes with a bit of magic. But, of course.

                BTW are you still locked in your house by your fascist government?
                I am currently residing in my house on Phuket Island, but thanks for your concern.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                  You are assuming that the universe exists for a reason. Why would you think that?
                  So asking why it rains is not a legitimate question?



                  The natural laws and constants and the laws of physics explain how the universe functions. These can all be tested and deductively verified because, they have premises that can be shown to be true.

                  Conversely, the god hypothesis cannot.
                  Good grief Tass, that is not the point!


                  I see. So, the universe is governed by the natural laws and constants except when a purported god intervenes with a bit of magic. But, of course.
                  Right, but we call them miracles...


                  I am currently residing in my house on Phuket Island, but thanks for your concern.
                  And you thought Trump was a fascist! On a serious note I hope your health is OK - like I said COVID almost killed me last year, and took two of my friends.

                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ]=seer View Post

                    So asking why it rains is not a legitimate question?
                    Why and how it rains is a scientific question. It’s not an existential problem.

                    Good grief Tass, that is not the point!
                    Given that your OP is “Logic, Therefore God” it is precisely the point. One cannot have a sound deductive argument without a demonstrably true premise.

                    Right, but we call them miracles..
                    Religion and miracles rely on subjective, unsubstantiated belief in a creator, whereas science relies on testable empirical evidence and observation.

                    And you thought Trump was a fascist! On a serious note I hope your health is OK - like I said COVID almost killed me last year, and took two of my friends.
                    Sorry to hear about your Covid problems. I’m fine with 2 AstraZeneca shots. Plus, Covid is not as bad on Phuket as elsewhere.


                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                      Why and how it rains is a scientific question. It’s not an existential problem.


                      Existential problem like how this universe got here...


                      Given that your OP is “Logic, Therefore God” it is precisely the point. One cannot have a sound deductive argument without a demonstrably true premise.
                      Or you can use inference to the best explanation. A rational universe created by a rational agent makes more sense that a rational universe created by non-rational forces. And one reason why more scientists are thinking the universe is more likely a simulation - created by intelligence. My point was you could not make a deductive argument for your view - neither of us could. Unless we both accept each others premises.My argument just made more sense.

                      Religion and miracles rely on subjective, unsubstantiated belief in a creator, whereas science relies on testable empirical evidence and observation.
                      Why does something have to be scientifically testable to be true? You don't live your life that way...


                      Sorry to hear about your Covid problems. I’m fine with 2 AstraZeneca shots. Plus, Covid is not as bad on Phuket as elsewhere.

                      Good to hear old friend!
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        [/COLOR][/FONT]

                        Existential problem like how this universe got here..
                        Existentialism is a form of philosophical enquiry and, unlike science, not capable of arriving at verifiable facts.

                        Or you can use inference to the best explanation. A rational universe created by a rational agent makes more sense that a rational universe created by non-rational forces.
                        Inferences and induction are good introductions but unless they can be demonstrably verified, they remain no more than speculation.

                        And one reason why more scientists are thinking the universe is more likely a simulation - created by intelligence. My point was you could not make a deductive argument for your view - neither of us could. Unless we both accept each others premises.My argument just made more sense.
                        The main reason scientists are accepting the concept of a simulated universe is because it is theoretically possible to exist. And one can make deductive arguments from all of the varying processes of the laws and constants of natural world.

                        Why does something have to be scientifically testable to be true? You don't live your life that way...
                        Something has to be scientifically testable in order to be shown to be objectively true.

                        Good to hear old friend!
                        Thank you.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                          Existentialism is a form of philosophical enquiry and, unlike science, not capable of arriving at verifiable facts.
                          Like how this universe came about. You assume without evidence that science can answer it...


                          Inferences and induction are good introductions but unless they can be demonstrably verified, they remain no more than speculation.
                          I don't see your position - the non-rational creating the rational, is more tenable than my position of the rational creating the rational. If we applied this logic to the making of computers I think the problem is evident...

                          The main reason scientists are accepting the concept of a simulated universe is because it is theoretically possible to exist. And one can make deductive arguments from all of the varying processes of the laws and constants of natural world.
                          Of course one must first accept the premise. But in a simulation it would be child's play to have some one walk on water. Of course the simulation must be the result of an intelligence. You guys are half way there!



                          Something has to be scientifically testable in order to be shown to be objectively true.
                          That is just silly. Like your mother's love?


                          Thank you.

                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post

                            Like how this universe came about. You assume without evidence that science can answer it...
                            Only science can provide verifiable reasons as to how this universe came about.

                            I don't see your position - the non-rational creating the rational, is more tenable than my position of the rational creating the rational. If we applied this logic to the making of computers I think the problem is evident.
                            Rational, reasoning creatures like us evolved via natural selection. Evolution by natural selection is one of the best substantiated theories in the history of science. There is no verifiable evidence of a rational deity.

                            Of course one must first accept the premise. But in a simulation it would be child's play to have some one walk on water. Of course the simulation must be the result of an intelligence. You guys are half way there!
                            Simulations are grounded in the natural laws of the universe. The simulators do not have the powers of creator gods.

                            That is just silly. Like your mother's love?
                            Emotions are physical and instinctive and are measurable via EEG and fMRI etc.



                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                              Only science can provide verifiable reasons as to how this universe came about.
                              But you assume that there exists such a verifiable reason to be discovered.



                              Rational, reasoning creatures like us evolved via natural selection. Evolution by natural selection is one of the best substantiated theories in the history of science. There is no verifiable evidence of a rational deity.
                              That is just silly - science has no idea how the most basic human function came about - consciousness. Except to assert "nature did it."

                              Simulations are grounded in the natural laws of the universe. The simulators do not have the powers of creator gods.
                              If we are in a simulation they could still make us believe just about anything.

                              Emotions are physical and instinctive and are measurable via EEG and fMRI etc.
                              So you need to hook your mom up to an EEG to know if she loves you? Do you do this with all your loved ones?

                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                                But you assume that there exists such a verifiable reason to be discovered.
                                “Facts”, such as the existence of the natural universe are subject to verification. Otherwise, they are delusions.

                                That is just silly - science has no idea how the most basic human function came about - consciousness. Except to assert "nature did it."
                                We know that our consciousness inhabits our living bodies, and can be altered by the body’s reaction to drugs and anesthetics etc. When our bodies stop operating, our consciousness stops, too. This indicates that consciousness arises as a byproduct of the physical brain and is dependent upon it to survive.

                                If we are in a simulation they could still make us believe just about anything.
                                Like religion, you mean?

                                So you need to hook your mom up to an EEG to know if she loves you? Do you do this with all your loved ones?
                                Subjective feelings such as love are instinctive. This does not alter the fact that they are grounded in our physical brains and measurable via EEG and fMRI etc.


                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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