Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Logic, Therefore God...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I Have another question if anyone cares to share their thoughts:

    Why was Ayn Rand all evangelical about the laws of thought being absolute, yet she was an atheist?

    The atheist's that I have corresponded with seem to have a foregone conclusion that these laws are non-absolute. Was this great thinker simply being dishonest her entire career?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
      I Have another question if anyone cares to share their thoughts:

      Why was Ayn Rand all evangelical about the laws of thought being absolute, yet she was an atheist?

      The atheist's that I have corresponded with seem to have a foregone conclusion that these laws are non-absolute. Was this great thinker simply being dishonest her entire career?
      No she wasn't dishonest. You could be an atheist and believe that laws of logic are absolutes, and there are theists who don't believe that they are absolute - like holding to paraconsistent logic.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        What does that have to do with other universes?
        It depends upon how you want to define “universes”. It makes the point that there are many billions of Earth-like planets orbiting in the habitable zones of Sun-like stars in the estimated 100 thousand-million stars in our own Milky Way galaxy alone. And there are an estimated two trillion similar galaxies in the observable universe.

        So, it seems, our humble little planet is hardly unique or special.

        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          Don't turn it around Tass - you said you could make a deductive argument for your position - so do it! I did not claim that I could make a deductive argument.

          I said:And you can not make a deductive argument that nature alone created this universe

          You said: One can verify the existence of the natural world (or components thereof) and thereby establish a true premise from which to make a sound deductive argument.
          The point is that you cannot make a sound logical argument without a verifiable premise. And your premise (#350) that “we cannot have a universe apart from God” is merely a bald assertion, NOT a verifiable, true premise.

          Conversely, one can make a sound argument (at least in principle) based upon verifiable premises for the existence of the natural universe and how it came into being and functions.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            No, you have to show how a moral God is illogical. Which law of logic does that violate?
            The Milky Way Galaxy (for example) is not composed of your attribute 'Morality' ....it just does what it does.
            The Whole just does what it does.

            There is nothing about this universe that is 'Moral' or 'Righteous'........ You've just spun the idea of a righteous God, when God is EVERYTHING.
            Easy.

            Be specific please. And when are you going to tell us about your god? If it is more than nature what is that more?
            Nature is everything we can see with human sight and telescopes, etc, but there is dark matter, there is Space, the mystics talk about the nothingness, and anti-matter. And there is what lies beyond the boundaries of the universe, more universes I expect.

            Don't forget, not so long ago Christians thought this planet was the centre of creation. Now it looks as if you think this universe is the centre of creation. Illogical.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

              The point is that you cannot make a sound logical argument without a verifiable premise. And your premise (#350) that “we cannot have a universe apart from God” is merely a bald assertion, NOT a verifiable, true premise.

              Conversely, one can make a sound argument (at least in principle) based upon verifiable premises for the existence of the natural universe and how it came into being and functions.
              Stop being hypocritical Tass, you claim that you could make a deductive argument - you can, just admit it. Prove that non-rational forces of nature could or did create an intelligible precise universe that is life permitting. If not you are only asserting, exactly as I am...
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by eider View Post
                The Milky Way Galaxy (for example) is not composed of your attribute 'Morality' ....it just does what it does.
                The Whole just does what it does.

                There is nothing about this universe that is 'Moral' or 'Righteous'........ You've just spun the idea of a righteous God, when God is EVERYTHING.
                Again, God is not a tree, God is not the universe, so your point about the Milky Way is meaningless. So again, why is a moral God illogical - what law of logic does that run afoul of? Or just admit that you are merely offering your opinion.


                Nature is everything we can see with human sight and telescopes, etc, but there is dark matter, there is Space, the mystics talk about the nothingness, and anti-matter. And there is what lies beyond the boundaries of the universe, more universes I expect.

                Don't forget, not so long ago Christians thought this planet was the centre of creation. Now it looks as if you think this universe is the centre of creation. Illogical.
                Why is it illogical to believe that this is the only universe? Are there others you know of?

                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                  It depends upon how you want to define “universes”. It makes the point that there are many billions of Earth-like planets orbiting in the habitable zones of Sun-like stars in the estimated 100 thousand-million stars in our own Milky Way galaxy alone. And there are an estimated two trillion similar galaxies in the observable universe.

                  So, it seems, our humble little planet is hardly unique or special.
                  We were speaking of billions of other universes for which there is no evidence.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post

                    Again, God is not a tree, God is not the universe, so your point about the Milky Way is meaningless. So again, why is a moral God illogical - what law of logic does that run afoul of? Or just admit that you are merely offering your opinion.
                    But a tree is part of God.
                    The universe is a part of God.
                    There is no morality or immorality in either.

                    You, who has a faith, are trying to rubbish other beliefs. Illogical.

                    Why is it illogical to believe that this is the only universe? Are there others you know of?
                    Because all you've got is a belief, just as you wrote.
                    Astronomers have noticed that some galaxies are moving out of sync with their anticipated trajectories. Outside attraction.?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by eider View Post
                      But a tree is part of God.
                      The universe is a part of God.
                      There is no morality or immorality in either.
                      No a tree is not part of God. Now what?

                      Because all you've got is a belief, just as you wrote.
                      Astronomers have noticed that some galaxies are moving out of sync with their anticipated trajectories. Outside attraction.?

                      What does that have to do with anything? So again, tell us why you call the universe a part of god? What is this god? What are the other parts of this god?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        No a tree is not part of God. Now what?
                        I don't mind you denying that 'all is part of the whole, of God' because you are not a Deist. But it is just logical that 'all is part of the whole'. I call the whole of everything God.

                        What does that have to do with anything?
                        If you don't think that astronomer's reports about observations are 'anything' then I can't help you.

                        So again, tell us why you call the universe a part of god?
                        ...... because I am a Deist.
                        Deism is quite logical.

                        What is this god?
                        ........ every thing, force and anything else.

                        What are the other parts of this god?
                        I've already told you that. Anything, Everything, All forces, Objects, You, All Dark Matter, All anti-matter, ........... everything, is part of God.

                        Why? Which parts do you think are not of God?

                        Again......... where is the Logic behind your faith? Your OP supports Deism before Christianity, I think.


                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by eider View Post
                          I don't mind you denying that 'all is part of the whole, of God' because you are not a Deist. But it is just logical that 'all is part of the whole'. I call the whole of everything God.
                          Again why do you call the whole god? Faith?


                          If you don't think that astronomer's reports about observations are 'anything' then I can't help you.
                          What does it mean? So what?

                          ...... because I am a Deist.
                          Deism is quite logical.
                          Why is Deism logical? Because you say so?

                          ........ every thing, force and anything else.
                          Everything, as far as we know, is nature. But you said that your god is more than nature? Another statement of faith?


                          I've already told you that. Anything, Everything, All forces, Objects, You, All Dark Matter, All anti-matter, ........... everything, is part of God.
                          Again, those are nature forces and things and you said those were only a part of god? What is the other part?

                          Why? Which parts do you think are not of God?
                          None of it is God, the universe is not God...

                          Again......... where is the Logic behind your faith? Your OP supports Deism before Christianity, I think.
                          Nope...

                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post

                            Nope...

                            Yep.....

                            Round and round........ Thanks for the debate.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post

                              We were speaking of billions of other universes for which there is no evidence.
                              Again, it depends upon how you want to define “universes”. There is multiverse theory for one.

                              But even this universe is so very vast it can reasonably be regarded as many separate universes – with its estimated two trillion galaxies each containing billions of Earth-like planets orbiting in the habitable zones of Sun-like stars.

                              https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/hubble-reveals-observable-universe-contains-10-times-more-galaxies-than-previously-thought

                              Conversely, there is NO verifiable evidence of any kind for your god-did-it universe.





                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                                Stop being hypocritical Tass, you claim that you could make a deductive argument - you can, just admit it. Prove that non-rational forces of nature could or did create an intelligible precise universe that is life permitting. If not you are only asserting, exactly as I am...
                                We don’t have to prove “that non-rational forces of nature could or did create an intelligible precise universe that is life permitting” because we are already living on a life-bearing planet that did just that. Life evolved via natural selection to fit the conditions existing on planet Earth. And there is every good reason to think that similar has occurred on millions on similar–life bearing planets in millions of galaxies. Evolution by natural selection is one of the best substantiated theories in the history of science, supported by evidence from a wide variety of scientific disciplines.

                                You have yet to justify your bald assertion that “we cannot have a universe apart from God” because that’s precisely what we do have.


                                Last edited by Tassman; 10-08-2021, 12:49 AM.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 01-09-2022, 05:51 AM
                                148 responses
                                647 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by Seeker, 12-08-2021, 11:31 PM
                                474 responses
                                2,745 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Seeker
                                by Seeker
                                 
                                Started by seer, 10-11-2021, 07:32 PM
                                472 responses
                                3,031 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by seer, 10-06-2021, 06:21 PM
                                296 responses
                                1,829 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Machinist  
                                Working...
                                X