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They Don't Care, But I do...

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  • They Don't Care, But I do...

    Brain chemicals don't care if I have that second slice of cake, but I do. Chemicals don't care about my grandchildren, but I do. Chemicals don't care about world affairs, but I do. Chemicals don't care about the laws of mathematics, but I do. Chemicals don't care about rationality, but I do. Chemicals don't care about truth, but I do. Chemicals don't care about the needy, but I do. Chemicals don't care about a God or gods but I do. Chemicals care about none of these things, they don't take them into account, because, well, they are chemicals. So lies the unbridgeable gulf between mind and body....
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    • #3
      Seer, even though I'm a dualist on the mind-body issue, I don't think the arguments you've been making lately on this issue have even an iota of merit.

      Any computer-programmed artificial intelligence could be programmed to value ("care about") some things. Just as, with regard to your previous thread, they could be programmed to be rational. Or, as with an earlier thread, they could be programmed to analyze abstract concepts.

      As such, none of the things you're bringing up are actually plausible reasons to reject physicalism. Literally the only serious objection to physicalism is consciousness / qualia.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        Seer, even though I'm a dualist on the mind-body issue, I don't think the arguments you've been making lately on this issue have even an iota of merit.

        Any computer-programmed artificial intelligence could be programmed to value ("care about") some things. Just as, with regard to your previous thread, they could be programmed to be rational. Or, as with an earlier thread, they could be programmed to analyze abstract concepts.

        As such, none of the things you're bringing up are actually plausible reasons to reject physicalism. Literally the only serious objection to physicalism is consciousness / qualia.
        Yes both are programmed by an intelligence that does care and is rational. Second, this is just another take on consciousness. Which I have brought up a number of times. And I'm not sure what it means for a computer programme to "care?"
        Last edited by seer; 08-25-2021, 05:25 AM.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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        • #5
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
          This ethereal catch all of 'emergence' doesn't fill the gap. Unless one shows how... It is self evident that chemicals don't care about or value anything - they are chemicals after all...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Seer, even though I'm a dualist on the mind-body issue, I don't think the arguments you've been making lately on this issue have even an iota of merit.

            Any computer-programmed artificial intelligence could be programmed to value ("care about") some things. Just as, with regard to your previous thread, they could be programmed to be rational. Or, as with an earlier thread, they could be programmed to analyze abstract concepts.

            As such, none of the things you're bringing up are actually plausible reasons to reject physicalism. Literally the only serious objection to physicalism is consciousness / qualia.
            But a computer program doesn't actually care. It just goes through the motions programmed into it. It doesn't feel anything, can't reflect on what it is doing, isn't thinking at all. It just does what it is programmed to do. If you program a robot to give a blanket to a child when it is cold, it doesn't know or care what it is doing, it just senses the temperature of the child then executes a subroutine to hand it a blanket. That isn't "caring"


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

              But a computer program doesn't actually care. It just goes through the motions programmed into it. It doesn't feel anything, can't reflect on what it is doing, isn't thinking at all. It just does what it is programmed to do. If you program a robot to give a blanket to a child when it is cold, it doesn't know or care what it is doing, it just senses the temperature of the child then executes a subroutine to hand it a blanket. That isn't "caring"
              Or - current example - the self-driving car. Supposedly, if it finds itself in a situation where the death of human is unavoidable, it is programmed to take the least number of human lives.

              If there's an option between unavoidably hitting a kid on a bicycle or swerving onto a sidewalk and hitting 3 people, the kid is gonna get hit.
              It makes you think --- if you are alone in the vehicle, and the situation is a choice between hitting 3 children in the road, or swerving off into a bridge abutment, killing the driver - you....

              It's simply cold logic.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                Or - current example - the self-driving car. Supposedly, if it finds itself in a situation where the death of human is unavoidable, it is programmed to take the least number of human lives.

                If there's an option between unavoidably hitting a kid on a bicycle or swerving onto a sidewalk and hitting 3 people, the kid is gonna get hit.
                It makes you think --- if you are alone in the vehicle, and the situation is a choice between hitting 3 children in the road, or swerving off into a bridge abutment, killing the driver - you....

                It's simply cold logic.
                Yeah the lawyers are greedily awaiting the lawsuits that will come from such cases.

                the-simpsons-mr-burns.gif


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post

                  As such, none of the things you're bringing up are actually plausible reasons to reject physicalism. Literally the only serious objection to physicalism is consciousness / qualia.
                  Yes, the qualia of "caring". There is qualia of the first person experience of caring about something.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I was hoping this thread would continue for a while.

                    I have a question here regarding Qualia:

                    Is Life itself Qualia?

                    The textbook definition is sometimes defined as : the internal and subjective component of sense perceptions, arising from stimulation of the senses by phenomena

                    Isn't that Life?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                      I was hoping this thread would continue for a while.

                      I have a question here regarding Qualia:

                      Is Life itself Qualia?

                      The textbook definition is sometimes defined as : the internal and subjective component of sense perceptions, arising from stimulation of the senses by phenomena

                      Isn't that Life?
                      isn't personal experience life? your life, my life...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post

                        isn't personal experience life? your life, my life...
                        Indeed it is. Subjective Sense Perceptions are the essence of Life and essence is what a thing is. Qualia then, is Life. It's all that exists.

                        Just ruminating this morning.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                          But a computer program doesn't actually care. It just goes through the motions programmed into it. It doesn't feel anything, can't reflect on what it is doing, isn't thinking at all. It just does what it is programmed to do. If you program a robot to give a blanket to a child when it is cold, it doesn't know or care what it is doing, it just senses the temperature of the child then executes a subroutine to hand it a blanket. That isn't "caring"
                          Interesting points about robotics, there.
                          Robots can now carry out the most detailed and exact surgery on folks. But surgeons sometimes have to withdraw the robots and carry out the work on their own. A surgeon had a difficult job to do on a compacted mass of tissue and destroyed kidney on my right side which required a 14 inch long opening that would sever so many nerves to muscle that my right abdomen would collapse; he expects that it will be a couple of years before my nervous system can control my lower right abdomen.

                          A robotic system would have left thee tiny scars on my side and all of my nervous system intact, but robots cannot 'feel', cannot discern 'resistance' to their blades, and so they can nick a vein or artery in that extra micro-millimetre where an experienced hand would halt, and that is why he had to take control.

                          There must be other actions that robotics cannot be trusted with, but this is one that I found out about.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by eider View Post

                            Interesting points about robotics, there.
                            Robots can now carry out the most detailed and exact surgery on folks. But surgeons sometimes have to withdraw the robots and carry out the work on their own. A surgeon had a difficult job to do on a compacted mass of tissue and destroyed kidney on my right side which required a 14 inch long opening that would sever so many nerves to muscle that my right abdomen would collapse; he expects that it will be a couple of years before my nervous system can control my lower right abdomen.

                            A robotic system would have left thee tiny scars on my side and all of my nervous system intact, but robots cannot 'feel', cannot discern 'resistance' to their blades, and so they can nick a vein or artery in that extra micro-millimetre where an experienced hand would halt, and that is why he had to take control.

                            There must be other actions that robotics cannot be trusted with, but this is one that I found out about.
                            Strong echoes of this less than happy nanobot fiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WPrHnQOIxU

                            AKA S01E17 The New Breed - The Outer Limits 1995


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                              Strong echoes of this less than happy nanobot fiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WPrHnQOIxU

                              AKA S01E17 The New Breed - The Outer Limits 1995

                              Thank you for the film. Interesting.

                              Comment

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