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  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    I just reread that - Paul pretty much uses Biblical truths to make the case...
    There is Paul's using the altar dedicated to "an unknown god" but more so the citations from Greek philosophers (Aratus and Epimenides) in verse 28 which were used to support Paul's message


    What's more, the Bible chronicles the birth of Christianity and the initial spreading of the Gospel message to those (nearly everyone) who hadn't heard it. This is a different age. Virtually everyone has heard the Gospel message now.
    Last edited by rogue06; 08-18-2021, 11:55 AM.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Hmm... God question. Would Acts 17:22-31 count?
      This passage blows up Darfius's claim that the apostles simply proclaimed to a people who already accepted "The Bible" (to be charitable, I'll assume he means the OT) as Scripture.

      Of course, there are some examples where that happened (Stephen evangelizing to a Jewish crowd using various OT references, and Philip answering the question about what Isaiah 53 referred to), but these aren't the only examples, as your passage indicates. There just aren't that many examples of evangelism in the NT; the epistles are written to people who already had converted, so most of what we'll find are going to be in the first five books.

      Apologists like to use Acts 17 as a proof text for apologetics, but I agree with seer that it seems to be more along the lines of simply proclaiming what Christianity teaches. However, that passage can be used as an example of how we should vary our presentation styles, as Paul quoted the Greeks' own poets there. (Of course, the passage also indicates that there was more follow up later for those who were interested, where Paul may well have made more apologetic arguments if need be.)
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        There is Paul's using the altar dedicated to "an unknown god" but more so the citations from Greek philosophers (Aratus and Epimenides) in verse 28 which were used to support Paul's message
        Yet he ties it all to Biblical truths...


        What's more, the Bible chronicles the birth of Christianity and the initial spreading of the Gospel message to those (nearly everyone) who hadn't heard it. This is a different age. Virtually everyone has heard the Gospel message now.
        My friend's question is, why isn't the Word of God (preaching the straight Gospel) with the influence of the Holy Spirit good enough? What is higher, better or with more influence than these?

        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by seer View Post

          Yet he ties it all to Biblical truths...




          My friend's question is, why isn't the Word of God (preaching the straight Gospel) with the influence of the Holy Spirit good enough? What is higher, better or with more influence than these?
          The answer I would offer is where Paul says in 1 Corinthians that we must be all things to all people in the hopes of maximizing the number of those who are saved. The souls of those who need rational arguments to believe are no less precious than those who don't. I think God prefers that we *not* have to rely on these, because he told Thomas that those who did not see and still believe are more blessed. Glenn Miller helped this makes sense for me, with his argument that Jesus means that we should believe based on his revealed character.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

            This passage blows up Darfius's claim that the apostles simply proclaimed to a people who already accepted "The Bible" (to be charitable, I'll assume he means the OT) as Scripture.

            Of course, there are some examples where that happened (Stephen evangelizing to a Jewish crowd using various OT references, and Philip answering the question about what Isaiah 53 referred to), but these aren't the only examples, as your passage indicates. There just aren't that many examples of evangelism in the NT; the epistles are written to people who already had converted, so most of what we'll find are going to be in the first five books.

            Apologists like to use Acts 17 as a proof text for apologetics, but I agree with seer that it seems to be more along the lines of simply proclaiming what Christianity teaches. However, that passage can be used as an example of how we should vary our presentation styles, as Paul quoted the Greeks' own poets there. (Of course, the passage also indicates that there was more follow up later for those who were interested, where Paul may well have made more apologetic arguments if need be.)
            Much of Acts blows up that claim.


            I didn't realize that "Apologists like to use Acts 17 as a proof text for apologetics" in that it was the one thing I could think of off-hand when seer asked.

            I guess my addition to post #16, which I posted right before you posted this, and your note about the epistles being addressed to fellow Christians, is why we won't find a whole lot of apologetics being employed in Scripture.

            Today, with almost everyone having heard the Good News, the message will naturally shift away from simply repeating it in hope of successfully spreading it, but to also being able to answer questions and challenges about it from those you talk to.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Much of Acts blows up that claim.


              I didn't realize that "Apologists like to use Acts 17 as a proof text for apologetics" in that it was the one thing I could think of off-hand when seer asked.

              I guess my addition to post #16, which I posted right before you posted this, and your note about the epistles being addressed to fellow Christians, is why we won't find a whole lot of apologetics being employed in Scripture.

              Today, with almost everyone having heard the Good News, the message will naturally shift away from simply repeating it in hope of successfully spreading it, but to also being able to answer questions and challenges about it from those you talk to.
              I thought of one other possible example of apologetics from the New Testament. And I lied, it is from one of the epistles.

              Hebrews seems to have been written to converts who were confused about what was different in light of Jesus and what should have been believed. The author makes a number of logical-type arguments, much of which refer to the OT, but which also appeal to reason (just one example being Heb 7:12 "Where when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.") These aren't necessarily evidentialist-style apologetics, but it would be fair to call them apologetics nonetheless.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #22
                Not sure why the participants in this thread didn't have the intellectual integrity to portray my argument correctly, but obviously my "the apostles were speaking to people who already agreed that the Bible was the word of God as a foundation of their very culture" statement referred specifically to the Jews, whom most of the apostles preached to in Scripture. Paul was the apostle for and to the Gentiles and as rogue has already alluded to with Acts 17:22-31, he employed obvious "apologetics" for the sake of conversion.

                In fact, his most powerful argument is not readily apparent unless one possesses knowledge to help make it so. The Areopagus in Athens where he gave the speech was the epicenter of ancient Greek philosophical thought, a place where Socrates, Plato and Aristotle had all tread and taught and where some of the greatest philosophers of Paul's day congregated.

                The "unknown god" was not merely unknown, but unknowable. Called "the Good" and "the One" by Plato, he was theorized by the philosophers to be the substance of all being and as having created the creator god (Demiurge) who himself created the gods of creation, e.g. Zeus, Hera, etc.. In other words, the Infinite.

                For immortal no such union can be reasonably believed to be; although fancy, not having seen nor surely known the nature of God, may imagine an immortal creature having both a body and also a soul which are united throughout all time. Let that, however, be as God wills, and be spoken of acceptably to him. And now let us ask the reason why the soul loses her wings!

                ...The wing is the corporeal element which is most akin to the divine, and which by nature tends to soar aloft and carry that which gravitates downwards into the upper region, which is the habitation of the gods. The divine is beauty, wisdom, goodness, and the like; and by these the wing of the soul is nourished, and grows apace; but when fed upon evil and foulness and the opposite of good, wastes and falls away. Zeus, the mighty lord, holding the reins of a winged chariot, leads the way in heaven, ordering all and taking care of all; and there follows him the array of gods and demigods, marshalled in eleven bands; Hestia alone abides at home in the house of heaven; of the rest they who are reckoned among the princely twelve march in their appointed order. They see many blessed sights in the inner heaven, and there are many ways to and fro, along which the blessed gods are passing, every one doing his own work; he may follow who will and can, for jealousy has no place in the celestial choir. But when they go to banquet and festival, then they move up the steep to the top of the vault of heaven. The chariots of the gods in even poise, obeying the rein, glide rapidly; but the others labour, for the vicious steed goes heavily, weighing down the charioteer to the earth when his steed has not been thoroughly trained:-and this is the hour of agony and extremest conflict for the soul. For the immortals, when they are at the end of their course, go forth and stand upon the outside of heaven, and the revolution of the spheres carries them round, and they behold the things beyond. But of the heaven which is above the heavens, what earthly poet ever did or ever will sing worthily? It is such as I will describe; for I must dare to speak the truth, when truth is my theme. There abides the very being with which true knowledge is concerned; the colourless, formless, intangible essence, visible only to mind, the pilot of the soul. The divine intelligence, being nurtured upon mind and pure knowledge, and the intelligence of every soul which is capable of receiving the food proper to it, rejoices at beholding reality, and once more gazing upon truth, is replenished and made glad, until the revolution of the worlds brings her round again to the same place. In the revolution she beholds justice, and temperance, and knowledge absolute, not in the form of generation or of relation, which men call existence, but knowledge absolute in existence absolute; and beholding the other true existences in like manner, and feasting upon them, she passes down into the interior of the heavens and returns home; and there the charioteer putting up his horses at the stall, gives them ambrosia to eat and nectar to drink.

                Such is the life of the gods; but of other souls, that which follows God best and is likest to him lifts the head of the charioteer into the outer world, and is carried round in the revolution, troubled indeed by the steeds, and with difficulty beholding true being; while another only rises and falls, and sees, and again fails to see by reason of the unruliness of the steeds. The rest of the souls are also longing after the upper world and they all follow, but not being strong enough they are carried round below the surface, plunging, treading on one another, each striving to be first; and there is confusion and perspiration and the extremity of effort; and many of them are lamed or have their wings broken through the ill-driving of the charioteers; and all of them after a fruitless toil, not having attained to the mysteries of true being, go away, and feed upon opinion.

                Phaedrus


                Here Plato in the mouth of Socrates is saying that even the "gods" can merely gaze longingly into the "true heavens" upon the true God, who is the Being beyond being. Mere man cannot know Him.

                And the Lord Jesus agrees:

                Scripture Verse: Matthew 11

                25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

                27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

                28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

                © Copyright Original Source



                This was the culmination of Paul's suprarational argument: The Unknown and Unknowable God has been made known by the only being who can and does know Him--the Creator/Demiurge/Logos. The bond and bound between the Infinite and the Finite. Not only has the Father been made known, but He has been perfectly represented in the perfect Image of His Son, who proved His status by overcoming Death--something only the Infinite can do. And because Paul, like Moses before him, was "educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians (Greeks and Romans)" at the feet of Gamaliel (whom even the Jews today admit was the leading rabbi [and therefore one of the most learned] of his day), his argument was effective and many of these so-called "wise men" converted to the true wisdom of fellowship with their Maker.

                Scripture portrays intentional likenesses between Paul and Moses. Both were eminently learned, both were murderers, both began their "religious" careers with a specialized, unique vision of God and both were His preeminent spokesmen (Paul even chastised Peter). I point all of this out to show that God selected some of the most brilliant men of their day to spread "the gospel". Men who did not reject knowledge and learning but who rightly subjugated it to faith and obedience while using all of the above to "become all things to all men and so save some."

                There is nothing admirable or wise about suppressing knowledge in favor of ignorance and often this will only obscure the truth by which alone the Lord Jesus said we can be saved/set free. I suspect that the people who portray their willful ignorance as holiness are doing so to absolve themselves of the blame of not worshiping God in the manner He prescribes and because it is easier to praise God "with one's lips, though their heart is far from Him."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                  There is nothing admirable or wise about suppressing knowledge in favor of ignorance and often this will only obscure the truth by which alone the Lord Jesus said we can be saved/set free. I suspect that the people who portray their willful ignorance as holiness are doing so to absolve themselves of the blame of not worshiping God in the manner He prescribes and because it is easier to praise God "with one's lips, though their heart is far from Him."
                  I would assume this is a reference to Matthew 22:37, "Love the Lord with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind", which would certainly seem to be a relevant principle here. It speaks to those who would take pride in their lack of intellectual curiosity.

                  I would guess much of the anti-intellectual strain comes from 1 Corinthians 2:2, where Paul claimed to know nothing about Jesus crucified. We need a good exegesis of that, but I think people try to make it say more than intended.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                    I would guess much of the anti-intellectual strain comes from 1 Corinthians 2:2, where Paul claimed to know nothing about except (and possibly even "apart from") Jesus crucified. We need a good exegesis of that, but I think people try to make it say more than intended.
                    Such things as
                    ignoring the fact that Paul did criticise lack of learning, and wrote of their early exposure to his basic teachings rather than to all of his teachings.
                    Perhaps?

                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      The Bereans were praised for their seeking evidence to support what they were told. And how does he handle skeptical rejections?
                      The Bereans were commended for searching the Scriptures to test the preaching of the Apostles.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      Nationalist Christian.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                      Justice for Matthew Perna!

                      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        Such things as
                        ignoring the fact that Paul did criticise lack of learning, and wrote of their early exposure to his basic teachings rather than to all of his teachings.
                        Perhaps?
                        Yes, these are clues that there is something else going on in 1 Cor 2:2. That verse seems to me like rhetoric; where Paul is graphically differentiating between what is most important and what is not. The whole epistle is an occasional letter, so it's already clear this is advice for a specific situation.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Thinking about apologetic arguments in the New Testament while cooking and eating dinner and I thought of one presented not for the Resurrection but for the existence of God. The one Paul presents in Romans, even turning to nature for evidence that cannot be denied.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seer View Post

                            I have a close friend who was converted in the early 80s. Now he is in no sense an ignorant man, but he does not care for apologetic arguments of any sort. The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it. His position is that the Holy Spirit caused him to believe (and has maintained that faith through some trying times) so there is no need for apologetic musings. I find it hard to counter this - he is very devote, and shares the gospel freely. And I don't see any real defeater for his position...
                            I was converted in early 1980, a few months before turning 20. For my first few years as a believer, I loaded up on books by Josh McDowell (especially), Gleason Archer, Norm Geisler. I was going to learn all that stuff and be ready to defeat any objection. Crazy. I'm fine with the possibility that some people are called to "apologists," and to learn philosophy and various and sundry facts about how the Bible came to be, and whatever else. But that's not me, and I also don't see that in Scripture. I don't see as normative that typical believers will have the extraordinary education of Paul, and have lengthy debates in the marketplace or wherever. And in fact, Paul himself noted that sometimes his results did not come via "persuasive words of wisdom."

                            In Scripture, I see as much more common -- probably even normative -- that the "evidence" should be signs, wonders, the gifts and power and demonstration of the Spirit. Frankly, I'd say that if God is no longer in the business of "confirming His word," there's no reason anyone should bother believing it.
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Federalist.

                            Nationalist Christian.

                            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                            Justice for Matthew Perna!

                            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                              In Scripture, I see as much more common -- probably even normative -- that the "evidence" should be signs, wonders, the gifts and power and demonstration of the Spirit. Frankly, I'd say that if God is no longer in the business of "confirming His word," there's no reason anyone should bother believing it.
                              Yup.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Some random thoughts. First, I have no problem with apologetic arguments, I have been using them for years on these boards, as best as I can. I also have no problem with how my friend Mike came to faith. After all is there any thing more powerful and effective than the Word of God and the light of the Holy Spirit when it comes to conversion? My problem is when Christians like my friend are looked down on because they don't study or use such arguments, which if my experience is any measure is a majority of Christians.Even a great thinker like Alvin Plantinga says that such people are rationally justified in holding their beliefs without apologetic proofs.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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