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Problematic Apologetics

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  • #16
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    As to the last sentence, I wonder where they think someone like Charles Spurgeon -- the "Prince of Preachers" -- got his degree.
    Well, yeah, there's that.

    As to the rest, and from reading other posts, it is obvious that we are talking about two very different things when it comes to apologetics so I'll be bowing out.
    I'd prefer you hang aound and elaborate.

    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      I'm a little confused about this whole post. The post refers to apologetics, but all the examples refer to one's doctrinal stances on secondary issues. That's not what most people mean by "apologetics". That's theology. But I do agree that people unnecessarily drag churches through those weeds more than they should.

      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        As to the last sentence, I wonder where they think someone like Charles Spurgeon -- the "Prince of Preachers" -- got his degree.
        All evidence available suggests it might have come from being in the refiner's furnace. Much more convincing than the ones issued by a university or seminary. (Not saying he got everything right - but it seems that he did at least know the basics thoroughly.) Funny thing though - he thought he was a Calvinist. Not sure whether he was wrong, of whether the current concept of Calvinist is wrong.


        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
          How does that old saying go..."Vive la difference"?

          God has set in the body of Christ all types of giftedness and personalities. Cow Poke, to borrow your analogy of wanting to stay in the "shallow waters" of apologetics, the kingdom of God in this world really is rather like a public swimming pool that's always open. Cow Poke, if you feel you are impelled to be the one poised to welcome all new visitors to the "pool" and keep things focused on a more basic level, GO FOR IT. God has apparently gifted you to be that approachable type with an open heart of ministry. Nick feels led to explore the deep end of the pool, which is equally necessary and enjoyable. The Holy Spirit is the "life guard" sent to keep order and safety over this "pool". And try not to relieve yourselves in this pool, folks. Accidents will happen, but make an effort.

          We are ALL traveling from your "X" point in our studies to the "Z" point. Change is natural and to be expected when one is growing. My husband's church had the beloved founding minister pass away in his 80's, but almost to his dying day, he said he was still studying and fine-tuning his knowledge of scripture. Similar to the example of the man you are giving above, Cow Poke, who says he "wants to die with his boots on".

          My husband as an elder of his church views eschatology from a historicist position, and he absolutely loathes Preterism, I, on the other hand, have had a revival in my love for my Lord as never before since I started studying eschatology from the Preterist perspective. You couldn't pay me enough to abandon my growing peace and confidence in a God who keeps His promises to the letter, and at the exact time He promised to perform them. Does this create disunity in our home? Of course, but I have surrendered this to God, that He has not seen fit to have my husband and myself see eye-to-eye on these things. I do not even question my husband's sincere love for the scripture and his Savior, and despite our differences, God can and will use both of us to increase His kingdom here on this earth.

          The eschatological paradigm I have adopted has an eclectic mix of all the bits of truth that I could glean from each of the camps. And they each have SOMETHING to offer on this subject. When my father passed away, I was allowed to select some of the volumes from his library, and I took the Larkin book of end-time charts that I used to study as a child, and also his book on "The Spirit World" that fascinated me as a teen. Both of these books are filled with both truth and error, but they remind me of my journey toward selecting only the truth as best I am able. That's all God expects of us, and all we should expect of each other.
          Please accept this in the spirit in which it was written.

          When somebody shows up on Tweb with a name like "3 Resurrections", my reaction is, "OK, they're identifying themselves as a proponent of a particular unorthodox belief", and seem to think they have "special knowledge" that the rest of us don't have.

          To me, that's always a bit of a red flag.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Which brings up another point -- some Churches won't even consider a pastor unless he has a Doctor's degree, not even knowing what kind of pastor he would be.
            Let's see, that would leave out D.L Moody, Gypsy Smith ... who else? David Brainerd got kicked out of college.
            When I Survey....

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              ... my reaction is, "OK, they're identifying themselves as a proponent of a particular unorthodox belief", and seem to think they have "special knowledge" that the rest of us don't have. To me, that's always a bit of a red flag.
              Sorta like those who show up on Tweb using names of ancient Hellenistic philosophers.
              Last edited by Faber; 08-11-2021, 01:26 PM.
              When I Survey....

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Faber View Post

                Sorta like those who show up on Tweb using names of ancient Hellenistic philosophers.
                I like Diogenes

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  So, for the last hour, I was in my conference room with the father of a mother of a family that has been visiting our church, and thinking about joining our church.

                  Lemme back up... a woman, who is a veterinarian oncologist, has been visiting our church with her husband and 4 boys.
                  She has told her dad, a local cattleman, about our church and me, in particular.

                  He stopped by to "check me out" (he had called first and made an appointment) and wanted to know what I taught on Revelation.

                  I told him, very generically, about the conversation I started here, and that I think we sometimes get way too carried away on things we really can't know.

                  He seemed much relieved, and told me that the church he is currently attending (bigger church than ours) was borderline about to split, because there's an internal battle over various views of eschatology, because their pastor (I know him well) was really pushing a particular view of Revelation, and spending just about every Sunday Morning and Wednesday night message on it.

                  He echoed my thoughts that people he highly respects as pastors and teachers can't seem to disagree on "future" things, and he is frustrated with the "pushy" viewpoints.

                  (His pastor is a friend of mine pretty much fresh out of Seminary with his ThD, and loves to show how much he knows - He's still my friend, but I try to avoid "deep" discussions, and try to keep it light.)

                  Which brings up another point -- some Churches won't even consider a pastor unless he has a Doctor's degree, not even knowing what kind of pastor he would be.
                  The excessive focus on eschatology is why I recommended what seems a critical response -- the explanation of the history of the popular eschatology of today. The resistancechicks.com have the Revelation Red Pill which is quite convincing and should reduce hype about so-called signs.

                  I do however understand the pastoral concern of not raising issues that people would not like.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Faber View Post

                    Let's see, that would leave out D.L Moody, Gypsy Smith ... who else? David Brainerd got kicked out of college.
                    The cynic in me thinks that one of the main reasons is that a church hopes to attract doctors and lawyers and professionals (and their money) so they felt they had to have a "peer" of those categories. (more than one church pulpit committee has actually told me that outright)
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Faber View Post

                      Let's see, that would leave out D.L Moody, Gypsy Smith ... who else? David Brainerd got kicked out of college.
                      Of course, there's the opposite extreme that I encountered preaching through Kentucky, where they claim "you're either God-called or man-made". They literally meant if you've gone to college, you're "man-made".
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        No offense taken, Cow Poke. I can understand why you might sense a red flag going up. The username of 3 Resurrections is only my way of identifying what I think is the only bridge that could unite all the various eschatological positions. As I said above, I think each one of the camps is partly seeing the truth of SOMETHING of the big picture. Sort of like the "Blind men and the Elephant" poem. Each of them were partly in the right, and all were in the wrong in some way. A THIRD resurrection in our future is the only way that all of these varying positions could be reconciled with each other. And it's very, very simple to prove this from scripture without twisting anything whatever.

                        I hope I don't come across as some kind of crusader on here. In actuality, my main reason for being here is fellowship, and a continued part of my ongoing "therapy" against the past influences of sitting in a cult church with my husband for 16 years. HORRID aftermath effects of that spiritually abusive atmosphere - especially for the women and girls in the church. The "pastor" fell into sin in the typical fashion for many pastors, but still ended up being put back in his leadership position. During those years, I wanted to die, and I feared and hated domineering, oppressive men who had played a part in making my life a living hell. That was 20 years in the past when our family finally got out of that church, by God's mercy. Over the years, God has gently washed the bitterness from my mind and heart, and the ground feels level at the foot of the cross by now. But to keep from ever lapsing back into that poisonous mentality against my fellow Christian brothers, I make myself venture into the public arena and engage with you guys on purpose. Although I'm naturally an introvert, and I can totally identify with a lot of Nick's reticent perspectives on people and relationships. I relish reading the different types of viewpoints coming from each of you, and I wish there were a lot more women participating in the discussions as well - to help keep it balanced, you know.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                          No offense taken, Cow Poke. I can understand why you might sense a red flag going up. The username of 3 Resurrections is only my way of identifying what I think is the only bridge that could unite all the various eschatological positions. As I said above, I think each one of the camps is partly seeing the truth of SOMETHING of the big picture. Sort of like the "Blind men and the Elephant" poem. Each of them were partly in the right, and all were in the wrong in some way. A THIRD resurrection in our future is the only way that all of these varying positions could be reconciled with each other. And it's very, very simple to prove this from scripture without twisting anything whatever.

                          I hope I don't come across as some kind of crusader on here. In actuality, my main reason for being here is fellowship, and a continued part of my ongoing "therapy" against the past influences of sitting in a cult church with my husband for 16 years. HORRID aftermath effects of that spiritually abusive atmosphere - especially for the women and girls in the church. The "pastor" fell into sin in the typical fashion for many pastors, but still ended up being put back in his leadership position. During those years, I wanted to die, and I feared and hated domineering, oppressive men who had played a part in making my life a living hell. That was 20 years in the past when our family finally got out of that church, by God's mercy. Over the years, God has gently washed the bitterness from my mind and heart, and the ground feels level at the foot of the cross by now. But to keep from ever lapsing back into that poisonous mentality against my fellow Christian brothers, I make myself venture into the public arena and engage with you guys on purpose. Although I'm naturally an introvert, and I can totally identify with a lot of Nick's reticent perspectives on people and relationships. I relish reading the different types of viewpoints coming from each of you, and I wish there were a lot more women participating in the discussions as well - to help keep it balanced, you know.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            Of course, there's the opposite extreme that I encountered preaching through Kentucky, where they claim "you're either God-called or man-made". They literally meant if you've gone to college, you're "man-made".
                            This "God called" or "Man made" division doesn't seem to reflect reality. There are plenty of good reasons for studying theology, among them a broader range of avenues of approach. A person who has been called and studies is doing what should be done in many circumstances (and in many circumstances, there are better alternatives).
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              This "God called" or "Man made" division doesn't seem to reflect reality. There are plenty of good reasons for studying theology, among them a broader range of avenues of approach. A person who has been called and studies is doing what should be done in many circumstances (and in many circumstances, there are better alternatives).
                              I know what I want to say here, but I'm having a hard time expressing it. Lemme just ramble....

                              A Seminary education on a man who is not truly called by God and led by His Spirit will produce "an educated man".

                              A man called by God and led by the Spirit with limited or even no college or seminary may well produce a preacher, teacher, evangelist -- with a heart for lost souls, and the Holy Spirit will do the rest.

                              But, quiet obviously, it doesn't have to be an "either or".

                              If I were, however, to err on one side or the other, I'd rather have a man with a heart for being God's servant than a man full of religious book-learning but little or no passion for the lost or the learner.

                              I have a dear friend who was a Seminary graduate with a ThD, who simply "didn't work" in any church he tried to pastor.
                              I suggested that his love for the Greek and Hebrew languages and for Church History might make him an ideal University or Seminary professor.
                              He seemed stunned by that... like he had never even thought about it. He seemed to think that he "surrendered to the ministry" so he had to be a pastor.

                              He's now serving as a professor at a Baptist college and LOVING it. He's "in his element".

                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                                I know what I want to say here, but I'm having a hard time expressing it. Lemme just ramble....

                                A Seminary education on a man who is not truly called by God and led by His Spirit will produce "an educated man".

                                A man called by God and led by the Spirit with limited or even no college or seminary may well produce a preacher, teacher, evangelist -- with a heart for lost souls, and the Holy Spirit will do the rest.

                                But, quiet obviously, it doesn't have to be an "either or".

                                If I were, however, to err on one side or the other, I'd rather have a man with a heart for being God's servant than a man full of religious book-learning but little or no passion for the lost or the learner.

                                I have a dear friend who was a Seminary graduate with a ThD, who simply "didn't work" in any church he tried to pastor.
                                I suggested that his love for the Greek and Hebrew languages and for Church History might make him an ideal University or Seminary professor.
                                He seemed stunned by that... like he had never even thought about it. He seemed to think that he "surrendered to the ministry" so he had to be a pastor.

                                He's now serving as a professor at a Baptist college and LOVING it. He's "in his element".
                                And so ministering to those who have a thirst for knowledge, and helping them to better serve. Seems like a win-win to me.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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