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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    We should experiment on Cow Poke. He is color blind. You could try to explain what a color he can't see is like, then have him go try on those chromatic glasses and then tell us if he learned anything.
    Yes, that would work too - though I'm not sure anything could help CP....
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post

      Yes, that would work too - though I'm not sure anything could help CP....
      Just imagine when he finds out bacon isn't gray!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post

        Of course she learned something new, the experience of the color red, seeing/knowing the color red in reality, is new knowledge for her.
        "What is knowledge" and "how do we know things", I understand is at the heart of the branch of philosophy called epistemology. And I know there are just as many schools of thought under this heading as there are other branches. My question at this point is: is it considered knowledge if it is a subjective experience? (that is, if it's first person.) Does it not have to be transferable from one mind to another for it to be knowledge?

        The OP was about an apparent dualism of brain and mind...yet we have knowledge about things. This is very fascinating.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Machinist View Post

          "What is knowledge" and "how do we know things", I understand is at the heart of the branch of philosophy called epistemology. And I know there are just as many schools of thought under this heading as there are other branches. My question at this point is: is it considered knowledge if it is a subjective experience? (that is, if it's first person.) Does it not have to be transferable from one mind to another for it to be knowledge?

          The OP was about an apparent dualism of brain and mind...yet we have knowledge about things. This is very fascinating.
          Isn't everything we/you know based on first person subjective experience?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seer View Post

            Isn't everything we/you know based on first person subjective experience?
            OK. So dualism.

            I'm kinda lost here again. The OP was that there is an apparent dualism between the material brain and consciousness. I'm just trying to follow along. Just sitting here thinking and having coffee. Caffeine molecules.

            I've got to go mow grass now.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

              We should experiment on Cow Poke. He is color blind. You could try to explain what a color he can't see is like, then have him go try on those chromatic glasses and then tell us if he learned anything.
              Unfortunately, he doesn't already know everything that is known, or could possibly be known, about how the brain works.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                Unfortunately, he doesn't already know everything that is known, or could possibly be known, about how the brain works.
                But if he did, that is the point of Mary's room...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  But if he did, that is the point of Mary's room...
                  I understand. My point is that the scenario can't actually be tested.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                    I understand. My point is that the scenario can't actually be tested.
                    As a thought experiment the result it clear. Mary will learn or experience something new, therefore physicalism fails.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post

                      As a thought experiment the result it clear. Mary will learn or experience something new, therefore physicalism fails.
                      Yes, some philosophers come to that conclusion.

                      A lot of others don't.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                        Yes, some philosophers come to that conclusion.

                        A lot of others don't.
                        Yes some materialists have a problem with it. But what would you say Stoic? Did Mary learn something new?
                        Last edited by seer; 08-07-2021, 12:07 PM.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post

                          Yes some materialists have a problem with it. But what would you say Stoic? Did Mary learn something new?
                          I don't really know.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                            I don't really know.
                            Isn't it self evident? The seeing and knowing of colors by experience for the first time is new.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Isn't it self evident? The seeing and knowing of colors by experience for the first time is new.
                              There are a lot of things that seem obvious to some people, but not to everyone.

                              Comment

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