Brain states are public, you can open my head and observe electrical chemical interaction. But you can not know my subjective first person experience. What is it like when I itch, picture my mom, I am sad but reporting to you that I am happy. I say I like you, but I really don't. These conscious states are private, they are not public like brain states. This seems to point to a form of dualism.
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Consciousness = Private Access...
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Consciousness = Private Access...
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3sTags: None
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It is indeed a dualism of sorts. Are there any other options? I've read the other threads. Materialism/physicalism doesn't really explain anything. At best, all they can do is posit some form of emergence. The argument seems to be left there amid swirls of jargon. A Self Existent Rational Consciousness still seems to me the most parsimonious explanation.
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Originally posted by Machinist View PostIt is indeed a dualism of sorts. Are there any other options? I've read the other threads. Materialism/physicalism doesn't really explain anything. At best, all they can do is posit some form of emergence. The argument seems to be left there amid swirls of jargon. A Self Existent Rational Consciousness still seems to me the most parsimonious explanation.
Imagine a girl called Mary. She is a brilliant neuroscientist and a world expert on colour vision. But because she grew up entirely in a black and white room, she has never actually seen any colours. Many black and white books and TV programmes have taught her all there is to know about colour vision. Mary knows facts like the structure of our eyes and the exact wavelengths of light that stimulate our retinas when we look at a light blue sky.
One day, Mary escapes her monochrome room, and as she walks through the grey city streets, she sees a red apple for the first time.
What changes upon Mary’s encounter with the red apple? Has Mary learnt anything new about the colour red upon seeing the colour for the first time? Since Mary already knew everything about the physics and biology of colour perception, she must surely have known all there is to know about the colour red beforehand. Or is it possible that some facts escape physical explanations? (‘Physical’ in this sense refers to all the realms of physical science, including chemistry, biology, neuroscience, etc.). If Mary has learnt something new, then we can conclude that scientific explanations cannot capture all there is to know.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Mary's room is an interesting thought exercise.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by seer View PostBrain states are public, you can open my head and observe electrical chemical interaction. But you can not know my subjective first person experience. What is it like when I itch, picture my mom, I am sad but reporting to you that I am happy. I say I like you, but I really don't. These conscious states are private, they are not public like brain states. This seems to point to a form of dualism.
From the article:
In a study published in the Proceedings of the National Academies of Science, we have now shown that conscious brain activity seems to be linked to the brain’s “pleasure chemical”, dopamine.
The fact that the neural mechanisms that underpin consciousness disorders are difficult to characterise makes these conditions hard to diagnose and treat. Brain-imaging has established that a network of interconnected brain regions, known as the default mode network, is involved in self-awareness. This network has also been shown to be impaired in anaesthesia and after brain damage that causes disorders of consciousness. Importantly, it seems to be crucial to conscious experience.[...]
The brain chemical involved in consciousness
So how do we help these people? The brain is more than just a congregation of different areas. Brain cells also rely on a number of chemicals to communicate with other cells – enabling a number of brain functions. Before our study, there was already some evidence that dopamine, well known for its role in reward, also plays a role in disorders of consciousness.
For example, one study showed that dopamine release in the brain is impaired in minimally conscious patients. Moreover, a number of small-scale studies have shown that patients’ consciousness can improve by giving them drugs that act through dopamine.
The dopamine source in the brain is called the ventral tegmental area (VTA). It is from this region that dopamine is released to most areas in the cortex. In our recent study, we showed that the function of this source of the brain’s dopamine is impaired in patients with disorders of consciousness and also in healthy people after the administration of an anaesthetic.
In healthy people, we found that VTA function was restored after withdrawal of sedation. And people with reduced consciousness who improved over time also regained some of their VTA function. In addition, the dysfunction in dopamine was linked with a dysfunction in the default mode network, which we already know is key in consciousness. This suggests that dopamine may really have a central role in maintaining our consciousness.
The study, carried out in the Division of Anaesthesia at the University of Cambridge, also shows that the use of current and future drugs, which act on dopamine, should help improve our understanding of anaesthesia. Surprisingly, although anaesthesia with ether was first used in surgery at Massachusetts General Hospital in 1846, the specific processes as to how general anaesthetics act at multiple sites to produce anaesthetic action remain a mystery.
But the most exciting aspect of this research is ultimately that it gives hope for better treatments of consciousness disorders, using drugs that act on dopamine.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
You might find this interesting.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
You might find this interesting. https://theconversation.com/consciou...esearch-165498
From the article:
In a study published in the Proceedings of the National Academies of Science, we have now shown that conscious brain activity seems to be linked to the brain’s “pleasure chemical”, dopamine.
The fact that the neural mechanisms that underpin consciousness disorders are difficult to characterise makes these conditions hard to diagnose and treat. Brain-imaging has established that a network of interconnected brain regions, known as the default mode network, is involved in self-awareness. This network has also been shown to be impaired in anaesthesia and after brain damage that causes disorders of consciousness. Importantly, it seems to be crucial to conscious experience.[...]
The brain chemical involved in consciousness
So how do we help these people? The brain is more than just a congregation of different areas. Brain cells also rely on a number of chemicals to communicate with other cells – enabling a number of brain functions. Before our study, there was already some evidence that dopamine, well known for its role in reward, also plays a role in disorders of consciousness.
For example, one study showed that dopamine release in the brain is impaired in minimally conscious patients. Moreover, a number of small-scale studies have shown that patients’ consciousness can improve by giving them drugs that act through dopamine.
The dopamine source in the brain is called the ventral tegmental area (VTA). It is from this region that dopamine is released to most areas in the cortex. In our recent study, we showed that the function of this source of the brain’s dopamine is impaired in patients with disorders of consciousness and also in healthy people after the administration of an anaesthetic.
In healthy people, we found that VTA function was restored after withdrawal of sedation. And people with reduced consciousness who improved over time also regained some of their VTA function. In addition, the dysfunction in dopamine was linked with a dysfunction in the default mode network, which we already know is key in consciousness. This suggests that dopamine may really have a central role in maintaining our consciousness.
The study, carried out in the Division of Anaesthesia at the University of Cambridge, also shows that the use of current and future drugs, which act on dopamine, should help improve our understanding of anaesthesia. Surprisingly, although anaesthesia with ether was first used in surgery at Massachusetts General Hospital in 1846, the specific processes as to how general anaesthetics act at multiple sites to produce anaesthetic action remain a mystery.
But the most exciting aspect of this research is ultimately that it gives hope for better treatments of consciousness disorders, using drugs that act on dopamine.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
That seems to be discussing conscious vs unconscious (as in awake vs asleep) not consciousness as in self-awareness and sentience. Even when asleep you still have consciousness in that you can think and experience things and are a self-aware being. Even if just in a dream. You can also have lucid dreams where you are still unconscious but able to know you are dreaming. Kind of like a VR experience.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostMary's room is an interesting thought exercise.
https://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/...rs/jackson.pdf
(I don't pretend to completely understand his argument. I had a tough enough time just figuring out that "intensional" has a completely different meaning from "intentional".)
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Perhaps even more interesting than that thought exercise is the fact that Frank Jackson, the person who originated it, later rejected it and became a physicalist.
https://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/...rs/jackson.pdf
(I don't pretend to completely understand his argument. I had a tough enough time just figuring out that "intensional" has a completely different meaning from "intentional".)Last edited by seer; 08-05-2021, 03:06 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Mary's room is an interesting thought exercise.
Mary has now at least correlated the frequency of what we call red with the term "red". Are you saying that that process, (the linking of first person experience with the word that describes the experience), constitutes knowledge?
If so, then yes, she most definitely has learned something new.
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Originally posted by Machinist View Post
If Mary has learnt something new, then we can conclude that scientific explanations cannot capture all there is to know.
Mary has now at least correlated the frequency of what we call red with the term "red". Are you saying that that process, (the linking of first person experience with the word that describes the experience), constitutes knowledge?
If so, then yes, she most definitely has learned something new.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Of course she learned something new, the experience of the color red, seeing/knowing the color red in reality, is new knowledge for her.
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