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Christianity, Atheism, and the Problem of Evil

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Do you have a source for that? Or are you positing other universes or something?
    I should have been clearer in that sentence. Science [as in scientific research and theory] is still pondering what is reality. Many scientists and other academics put forward a variety of theories about our perceptions of reality, our evolutionary history, our brain function, and whether "reality" even exists. There are a plethora of papers and journals available online that discuss aspects of these vast and very complex subjects. Not to mention large numbers of books that may be purchased on these topics.

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    The purpose of science is to discover facts about our universe, our reality. We don't know it all yet, but we learn more every day.

    Through the scientific method. We test our assumptions and see what is fact and what is fiction. What I meant was that people can believe false things that do not correspond with reality. I am sure you think my belief in God is one such example. Unfortunately we don't have a way to test that belief, so it remains a faith not a science.

    But that doesn't mean we can't tell what does correspond with reality or not. Again, there is only one reality. We might be wrong about some of it and right about other parts. Being wrong about it doesn't mean there is more than one reality. If I am wrong about God, that just means that in reality, God doesn't exist. It doesn't meant there are two realities, one where God exists and one where he doesn't. If science is wrong about something, it just means it is wrong about reality. The actual reality doesn't change. When scientists thought that the earth was the center of the universe, they were wrong. That didn't change reality or mean there were multiple realities.

    I have requested that you define what you understand by these comments:

    "All truth is absolute.
    Truth is what corresponds with reality so there really aren't different truths.
    true in an absolute sense"


    I am still waiting.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      "All truth is absolute.
      Truth is what corresponds with reality so there really aren't different truths.
      true in an absolute sense"


      I am still waiting.
      Are you being an ass on purpose?

      1. It can not be otherwise; it is not the case that I wrote this and did not write this. It is a truism and absolute.
      2. The sun presently exists that is a truth that corresponds to reality.
      3. The law of non-contradiction is absolute, i.e. it can not be violated. If you think otherwise offer an example.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        Are you being an ass on purpose?

        1. It can not be otherwise; it is not the case that I wrote this and did not write this. It is a truism and absolute.
        2. The sun presently exists that is a truth that corresponds to reality.
        3. The law of non-contradiction is absolute, i.e. it can not be violated. If you think otherwise offer an example.
        There is no such thing absolute truth or absolute reality.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          There is no such thing absolute truth or absolute reality.
          Is that statement absolute? If yes then you just refuted yourself, if it is not absolute then we can dismiss the claim.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            I should have been clearer in that sentence. Science [as in scientific research and theory] is still pondering what is reality. Many scientists and other academics put forward a variety of theories about our perceptions of reality, our evolutionary history, our brain function, and whether "reality" even exists. There are a plethora of papers and journals available online that discuss aspects of these vast and very complex subjects. Not to mention large numbers of books that may be purchased on these topics.
            As I said science is about discovering facts about reality. That's what it does. Nothing you say above contradicts that.

            I have requested that you define what you understand by these comments:

            "All truth is absolute.
            Truth is what corresponds with reality so there really aren't different truths.
            true in an absolute sense"


            I am still waiting.
            Perhaps you should invest in a dictionary.

            There is one reality. An absolute truth corresponds with that reality. It is not "subjectively" but "objectively" true. It is true for you and it is true for me and it is true for everyone. Because it corresponds with reality. If you say that baryonic matter is made up of protons, neutrons and electrons, then that is an absolute truth. It is true for you. it is true for me, it is true even if someone doesn't believe in matter. If you say the Earth's overall shape is a spheroid, that is true for everyone, even if some people think it is flat as a pancake. That is an absolute/objective truth statement. It corresponds with reality.
            Last edited by Sparko; 08-06-2021, 01:25 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post

              Is that statement absolute? If yes then you just refuted yourself, if it is not absolute then we can dismiss the claim.
              There you go using that Aristotelian logic again!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                As I said science is about discovering facts about reality.
                As I noted the whole issue of "reality" is a topic that is being pondered..

                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                There is one reality.
                On what evidence? At the quantum level the reality of seer's wall is a mass of atoms. Our visual and tactile perceived reality of the wall is that of an impenetrable mass of stone or brick.

                Can a person blind from birth ever experience your reality of a sunset? Can a person completely deaf from birth ever experience your reality of a piece of music? Indeed do those who can both see and hear experience the reality of those two events in precisely the same way?

                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                An absolute truth corresponds with that reality. It is not "subjectively" but "objectively" true. It is true for you and it is true for me and it is true for everyone. Because it corresponds with reality.
                You need to read John Godfrey Saxe's poem based on the parable of the blind men and an elephant.

                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                If you say that baryonic matter is made up of protons, neutrons and electrons, then that is an absolute truth. It is true for you. it is true for me, it is true even if someone doesn't believe in matter. If you say the Earth's overall shape is a spheroid, that is true for everyone, even if some people think it is flat as a pancake. That is an absolute/objective truth statement. It corresponds with reality.
                All you have done here is give further examples of what I stated in my post # 149 "There are facts that we accept are true in that they accord with perceived reality and they can be demonstrated as such e.g. the earth orbits the sun."
                Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 08-07-2021, 05:00 AM.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  "There are facts that we accept are true in that they accord with perceived reality and they can be demonstrated as such e.g. the earth orbits the sun."
                  But the earth orbiting the sun is true whether we perceive it or not. Our perception is immaterial to that reality.

                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post

                    But the earth orbiting the sun is true whether we perceive it or not. Our perception is immaterial to that reality.
                    That is indeed a fact. At least in this sector of the visible universe.

                    However, that individual fact does not support the contention that there is an "absolute truth" or an "absolute reality".

                    Using specific examples such as the earth orbiting the sun or the overall shape of the earth does not, in and of itself, in some wise prove such dogmatic statements.
                    Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 08-07-2021, 06:26 AM.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      That is indeed a fact. At least in this sector of the visible universe.

                      However, that individual fact does not support the contention that there is an "absolute truth" or an "absolute reality".

                      Using specific examples such as the earth orbiting the sun or the overall shape of the earth does not, in and of itself, in some wise prove such dogmatic statements.
                      That is nonsense, that fact is the truth. And like I said the laws of logic i.e. the laws of non-contradiction is absolute. If you think otherwise offer an example.

                      and you must have missed this:

                      You said:There is no such thing absolute truth or absolute reality.


                      I said: Is that statement absolute? If yes then you just refuted yourself, if it is not absolute then we can dismiss the claim.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post

                        That is nonsense,
                        What is nonsense? The fact that the earth orbits the sun? Or the overall shape of the earth?

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        You said:There is no such thing absolute truth or absolute reality.
                        Both you and Sparko have yet to define either .


                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          What is nonsense? The fact that the earth orbits the sun? Or the overall shape of the earth?
                          No that it is a TRUTH.

                          There is no such thing absolute truth or absolute reality.



                          Again, Is that statement absolute? If yes then you just refuted yourself, if it is not absolute then we can dismiss the claim.

                          Both you and Sparko have yet to define either .
                          I gave you an example, the law of non-contradiction is absolute.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post

                            No that it is a TRUTH.
                            Those are facts based on the laws of physics as we understand them in this visible sector of the universe.

                            However, until either your or Sparko provide a precise definition for what you understand as "absolute truth" and "absolute reality" we are at an impasse.

                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              Those are facts based on the laws of physics as we understand them in this visible sector of the universe.

                              However, until either your or Sparko provide a precise definition for what you understand as "absolute truth" and "absolute reality" we are at an impasse.
                              A truth that can't be otherwise, or change: like the law of identity - A=A. That is an absolute truth.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                As I noted the whole issue of "reality" is a topic that is being pondered..

                                On what evidence? At the quantum level the reality of seer's wall is a mass of atoms. Our visual and tactile perceived reality of the wall is that of an impenetrable mass of stone or brick.
                                So? there is still only one reality. Just because we don't know it all doesn't mean it isn't there. If we didn't know the earth was round, would our experience of it being flat be reality? Of course not. It would still be round even if we couldn't tell or know about it.


                                Can a person blind from birth ever experience your reality of a sunset? Can a person completely deaf from birth ever experience your reality of a piece of music? Indeed do those who can both see and hear experience the reality of those two events in precisely the same way?
                                Same as above. If someone can't see a house does that mean the house isn't real? If someone can't hear sound, does that mean sound isn't real? No. Reality is there and doesn't change, even if our perception does.


                                You need to read John Godfrey Saxe's poem based on the parable of the blind men and an elephant.
                                The elephant was reality even when the blind people thought it was something else. They were WRONG. One realiity, several wrong guesses at what that reality was.

                                All you have done here is give further examples of what I stated in my post # 149 "There are facts that we accept are true in that they accord with perceived reality and they can be demonstrated as such e.g. the earth orbits the sun."
                                Facts either correspond with reality or they are not really facts. If they don't correspond to reality then they are either wrong or approximations.


                                Comment

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