Originally posted by seer
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Does Materialism Destroy Rationality?
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
If a computer can use inference, and a computer's conclusions are dictated by physical laws that know nothing of inference, then there is no reason that we can't use inference, even if our conclusions are dictated by physical laws that know nothing of inference.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
First, I'm not sure how a computer uses inference, what does that even mean? Second, the computer was programmed by an intelligence that did know about inference. Therefore could have programmed in that ability. So we are back to physical laws dictating logical inferences with no knowledge or understanding of such things. Why would we trust this state of affairs?
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Same reason as always. By making predictions, and seeing how they turn out.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is not the point. Yes, we are rational - but why? Because a rational intelligence that understands logical truths and inference endowed us with those abilities or because the physical process that does not understand such things was the driver?
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
I lean towards the latter, because it is actually explanatory, and because it is more parsimonious.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostHow can it be more parsimonious when it doesn't actually explain anything? How could forces that know nothing about logical inference programme us to know logical truths? Because of A you infer B. But the physical forces that determined that inference has no knowledge or either A or B or the logical connection.
Once evolution has stumbled by chance into making rational life forms, there is going to be a strong survival advantage to them retaining and improving that rationality. Evolution provides a very elegant explanation of how intelligence can arise from non-intelligent forces."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by seer View PostHow can it be more parsimonious when it doesn't actually explain anything? How could forces that know nothing about logical inference programme us to know logical truths? Because of A you infer B. But the physical forces that determined that inference has no knowledge or either A or B or the logical connection.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
If you want to explain rationality, assuming it has been here all along doesn't really explain anything.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIf you think of evolution as a random physical force generating different alternative lifeforms with different levels of survival value, it's easy to see why a creature that happens to be randomly programmed to be a bit more logical than another creature might have superior survival value, as the conclusions it draws from its experiences will be more rational and hence more in line with reality, thus enabling it to respond to its environment better.
Once evolution has stumbled by chance into making rational life forms, there is going to be a strong survival advantage to them retaining and improving that rationality. Evolution provides a very elegant explanation of how intelligence can arise from non-intelligent forces.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostFor the reasons I gave it doesn't seem that naturalism/determinism is an option.
And of course an intelligent would explain our rationality better than non-rational deterministic forces. Since there is nothing rational about them.
"A theory that explains everything, explains nothing." -- Karl Popper
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostWell, for the reasons I gave it's a perfectly viable option.
"A theory that explains everything, explains nothing." -- Karl Popper
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell no, you have not shown, even in principle, how forces blind to logical truths can create an understanding of logical inference.
But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
You mean like Naturalism?
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Actually I have, to the same extent that you have shown that naturalism/determinism is not an option.
But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Naturalism is not a theory. Evolution is a theory.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Were you determined to say that? How do natural forces know about such things?
Then neither is God, but naturalism is a world view that encompasses everything, just as theism does...
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