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Does Materialism Destroy Rationality?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    You are using abstract reasoning in your attempt to claim the laws of logic do not exist.
    My claim is not that the laws of logic do not exist, but that they do not exist as non-physical, abstract objects, as the OP claims they do.

    By the way "abstract" has nothing to do with what we are discussing. We are discussing material vs non-material.
    By some definitions, "abstract" implies "non-material" (e.g. existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence)

    All you seem to do is pontificate on things you can't support, and when I ask you to support them, you wiggle out of it. Then when I say something, you cry "prove it" - it's a two-way street, bub. If you merely want to toss out your opinion and contradict what anyone else says while not supporting yourself, then you "lose" by default. And you are wasting everyone's time.
    You asserted that ideas are non-material (post #47) and challenged me to prove that they are material (post #50).

    As you say, it's a two-way street.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Stoic View Post

      I like the idea that reality causes my beliefs, because without that link, there would be no reason to think that my beliefs are at all related to reality. You might as well not have any beliefs if you don't think they are caused, since they would be completely arbitrary.
      Again. reality does not cause anything. The only question is - why should we believe that physical forces which care nothing about reality, truism, or rationality create minds that do.

      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Again. reality does not cause anything.
        Perhaps you could be more clear. Are you denying cause and effect, or are you denying reality?

        The only question is - why should we believe that physical forces which care nothing about reality, truism, or rationality create minds that do.
        Why shouldn't we?

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Stoic View Post
          Perhaps you could be more clear. Are you denying cause and effect, or are you denying reality?
          I'm saying that physical cause and effect knows nothing of reality, and does not aim to encode your brain to understand reality, or truth, or any other mental concept.


          Why shouldn't we?
          For the reasons I gave. Again,you only believe the above because you were determined to. And not because of truth content. In other words naturalism is self defeating.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            I'm saying that physical cause and effect knows nothing of reality, and does not aim to encode your brain to understand reality, or truth, or any other mental concept.
            If understanding reality has survival value (which seems quite likely), then physical cause and effect doesn't need to know anything about reality in order to make one able to understand reality. Simply killing off those less able to understand reality will achieve the result.

            For the reasons I gave. Again,you only believe the above because you were determined to. And not because of truth content. In other words naturalism is self defeating.
            It sounds like your argument is, "If your beliefs are determined, then they are not caused by an understanding of reality."

            This is an obvious non sequitur, since it may be an understanding of reality that determines your beliefs.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Stoic View Post
              If understanding reality has survival value (which seems quite likely), then physical cause and effect doesn't need to know anything about reality in order to make one able to understand reality. Simply killing off those less able to understand reality will achieve the result.
              It seems that the forces of nature don't have to know anything about reality, truth, logic, rationality yet manage to create creatures that do.


              It sounds like your argument is, "If your beliefs are determined, then they are not caused by an understanding of reality."

              This is an obvious non sequitur, since it may be an understanding of reality that determines your beliefs.

              If our mental states are determined then any understandings we may have are too the result of the non-rational physical forces that have no understanding of reality. You go from no understanding to understanding. What bridges that gap.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                It seems that the forces of nature don't have to know anything about reality, truth, logic, rationality yet manage to create creatures that do.
                Exactly.

                If our mental states are determined then any understandings we may have are too the result of the non-rational physical forces that have no understanding of reality. You go from no understanding to understanding. What bridges that gap.
                Evolution.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                  Evolution.
                  That does not answer how non-rational brain chemicals produced rational mental states.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    That does not answer how non-rational brain chemicals produced rational mental states.
                    It doesn't give you exact details, no.

                    This is an area of active research, though.

                    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...volved/485558/


                    ​​​​​​​

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                      It doesn't give you exact details, no.

                      This is an area of active research, though.

                      https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...volved/485558/


                      ​​​​​​​
                      This is really nothing new, and unproven. But let me ask again. if you are determined to believe that A is true, you will believe it is true even it is false - correct?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post

                        This is really nothing new, and unproven.
                        It's a plausible story about how non-rational forces can produce understanding. It may not be proven, but it does a good job of defeating the claim that non-rational forces could not possibly have produced understanding.

                        But let me ask again. if you are determined to believe that A is true, you will believe it is true even it is false - correct?
                        Sure.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                          Sure.
                          Then on what basis are any of your conclusions rationally justified?

                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Then on what basis are any of your conclusions rationally justified?
                            On the same basis that conclusions are ever rationally justified.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Then on what basis are any of your conclusions rationally justified?
                              Generally 'rationally justified' in logical terms tends to mean that the conclusions follow from the premises according to the formal rules of logic. Since these rules are mechanical and mathematical they can easily be programmed into a computer or performed by another other fully mechanical device.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                                On the same basis that conclusions are ever rationally justified.
                                But rational conclusions rely on inference, A therefore B. But that is not the case with determinism. Conclusions are dictated by physical laws that know nothing of inference.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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