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  • #61
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    FWIU neither the Sinaiticus nor the Vaticanus codices contain either long ending. It is in the slightly later Alexandrinus codex as well as the Washingtonianus and Bezae. But the primary source is the Byzantine or Majority text.

    IIRC, the earliest extant copy of it dates to the 5th cent. but it is widely accepted that John Chrysostom was using it and he died at the start of the 5th cent. Further, I believe Irenaeus also cites from it and he's from the 2nd cent. Then there is the Gnostic Gospel of Nicodemus (a.k.a., the Acts of Pilate) from the middle 4th cent. that appears to be familiar with it as was Aphraates who was active in the early 4th cent.
    You certainly recall correctly:
    It is the reading found in the majority of Old Latin texts as well as the Coptic versions and other early translations. Finally, it is cited (at least in part) by many of the early church fathers such as Justin (165 AD), Tertullian (220 AD), Hippolytus (235 AD), Ambrose (397 AD) and Augustine (430 AD).[1]

    [1] John William Burgon, The Revision Revised (Paradise, PA: Conservative Classics, 1883), 422-423. Burgon also supplies additional names of church fathers who support the reading.


    In the source, it is footnote 5.
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-26-2021, 10:21 AM.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

      Thanks. I'm kind of trying to sort out whether "Is it 'original'" and "Is it canonical" are two separate questions.
      I don't think there are very many scholars who think it was "original" with opinion divided over whether the gospel was intended to end there or had a now "lost" ending.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        The documents dating to 400CE are written in Koine Greek, and match reasonably well with the extant earlier documents - translation errors are not in play, and any editing that may have occurred would date to an earlier time. The only part that 400CE could influence would be the books selected for inclusion in the Bible - a list that for the most part also existed before 400CE. There is no evidence to support the claim that influential writers of the late fourth and early fifth century tampered with the source texts. If commentators (e.g. Augustine) did not like what the source said, they would accurately cite and then reinterpret the text to shoehorn it into conformity with their own precepts. 400CE is therefore irrelevant in evaluating the source texts for the Bible.

        Any material error that might exist would arise with the authors' decisions regarding which materials to include in their own works, as per your "Covid Pandemic" example.
        I noticed in this and a few other posts that you are anything but a fan of Augustine.

        While he certainly held some odd views, many would be quite strange to the modern person, he appeared to hold more to a position of if something proved to be impossible to read in a strictly literal manner, then there must be a different understanding for it.

        For instance this attitude is repeatedly expressed at least when it comes to things readily observed in the natural world and can clearly be seen in one of his latest works, De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim ("The Literal Meaning of Genesis"):

        Source: Augustine: The Literal Meaning of Genesis


        Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.

        Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn.

        The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.

        If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?

        Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although "they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion."

        © Copyright Original Source



        This sentiment is expressed elsewhere in different ways by Augustine. Again in "The Literal Meaning of Genesis":

        Source: The Literal Meaning of Genesis


        With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation.

        © Copyright Original Source



        In Contra Felicem Manichaeum ("Reply to Faustus the Manichaean"):

        Source: Reply to Faustus the Manichaean


        In the Gospel we do not read that the Lord said: I send you the Holy Spirit so that He might teach you all about the course of the sun and the moon. The Lord wanted to make Christians, not astronomers. You learn at school all the useful things you need to know about nature. It is true that Christ said that the Holy Spirit will come to lead us into all truth, but He is not speaking there about the course of the sun and the moon. If you think that knowledge about these things belongs to the truth that Christ promised through the Holy Spirit, then I ask you: how many stars are there? I say that such things do not belong to Christian teaching...whereas you affirm that this teaching includes knowledge about how the world was made and what takes place in the world.

        © Copyright Original Source



        In his De doctrina christiana ("On Christian Doctrine"):

        Source: On Christian Doctrine


        At the outset, you must be very careful lest you take figurative expression literally. What the apostle says pertains to this problem: "for the letter killeth, but the spirit quikeneth." That is, when that which is said figuratively is taken as though it were literal, it is understood carnally [carnalia]. Nor can anything more appropriately be called the death of the soul than that condition in which the thing which distinguishes us from beasts, which is understanding, is subjected to the flesh in the passing of the letter [hoc est, intelligentia carni subjicitur sequndo litteram]

        © Copyright Original Source



        And Augustine isn't the only one who expressed this view. For example, this view is echoed centuries later by Thomas Aquinas in his seminal work, Summa Theologica:

        Source: Summa Theologica


        In discussing questions of this kind two rules are to be observed, as Augustine teaches. The first is, to hold to the truth of the Scripture without wavering. The second is that since Holy Scripture can be explained in a multiplicity of senses, one should adhere to a particular explanation only in such measure as to be ready to abandon it if it be proved with certainty to be false, lest Holy Scripture be exposed to the ridicule of unbelievers, and obstacles be placed to their believing.

        © Copyright Original Source


        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #64
          Re the long ending of Mark. I consider it not unlikely that it was in fact original to the text. The truncated ending certainly avoids embarrassment for the churches.

          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

          I noticed in this and a few other posts that you are anything but a fan of Augustine.
          True enough.

          While he certainly held some odd views, many would be quite strange to the modern person, he appeared to hold more to a position of if something proved to be impossible to read in a strictly literal manner, then there must be a different understanding for it.
          No argument can reasonably be raised in opposition to the basic claim, but the things that Augustine found it impossible to believe create difficulty; the immutability (impassibility) of God being one that is repeatedly denied in scripture, and which Augustine asserts, declaring passibility impossible to believe. He doesn't even try to call to scripture on that issue.

          On other issues, he doesn't shrink from wresting the meaning of scripture when his own precepts conflict. Nor does he restrict the process to scripture. That is noticable in his dealings Pelagius' claims, where he first cites the author and then, declaring the author a liar, explains the real meaning, and then argues against that meaning. (We have seen that same process used by the MSM often enough). Where Pelagius was vindicated by a council, he declares the council members to be too ignorant and ill educated to discern Pelagius' claims for what they were.

          Source: Augustine: The Literal Meaning of Genesis


          Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, ...

          Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although "they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion."

          © Copyright Original Source

          This and the rest of your citations that follow are certainly valid.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

            The right interpretation is the one that conforms with the inspired writer's original intent. Sometimes this is obvious through a plain reading. Other times it takes study and research.
            All too often, Augustine's precepts simply don't give evidence that this procedure was followed.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              Re the long ending of Mark. I consider it not unlikely that it was in fact original to the text. The truncated ending certainly avoids embarrassment for the churches.
              I'm not sure how you mean that, but here's something I've been uncomfortably pondering: ISTM that in light of the "long ending," Rom. 15:19, 1 Cor. 2:4, 1 Thess. 1:5, and Heb. 2:4, skeptics would be justified in saying, "If I don't see any credible 'signs and wonders' and 'power,' why should I believe your preaching?"
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                I'm not sure how you mean that, but here's something I've been uncomfortably pondering: ISTM that in light of the "long ending," Rom. 15:19, 1 Cor. 2:4, 1 Thess. 1:5, and Heb. 2:4, skeptics would be justified in saying, "If I don't see any credible 'signs and wonders' and 'power,' why should I believe your preaching?"
                You got it.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Re the long ending of Mark. I consider it not unlikely that it was in fact original to the text. The truncated ending certainly avoids embarrassment for the churches.
                  Personally I think the truncated ending was intentional and it is brilliant.

                  Please hear me out.

                  Think about the audience this was originally intended for. For the most part it would be recent converts to Christianity. Imagine how they would react upon reading or hearing the final verse.

                  Scripture Verse: Mark 16:8

                  And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  Now obviously they must have said something to someone or else these recent converts would have never heard about it.

                  So why would Mark conclude that way? With a statement that was clearly false.

                  Again, think about how this message would strike a new convert. I think many would have reacted something along these lines: what do you mean "they said nothing to anyone?" well, I certainly will tell people!

                  It would energize them into witnessing -- which as Matthew made clear was a primary duty of Christians.

                  As I said. Brilliant.
                  Last edited by rogue06; 07-27-2021, 06:33 AM.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Personally I think the truncated ending was intentional and it is brilliant.

                    Please hear me out.

                    Think about the audience this was originally intended for. For the most part it would be recent converts to Christianity. Imagine how they would react upon reading or hearing the final verse.

                    Scripture Verse: Mark 16:8

                    And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Now obviously they must have said something to someone or else these recent converts would have never heard about it.

                    So why would Mark conclude that way? With a statement that was clearly false.

                    Again, think about how this message would strike a new convert. I think many would have reacted something along these lines: what do you mean "they said nothing to anyone?" well, I certainly will tell people!

                    It would energize them into witnessing -- which as Matthew made clear was a primary duty of Christians.

                    As I said. Brilliant.
                    How does "they fled the tomb without saying anything to anyone" come to be false?
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      How does "they fled the tomb without saying anything to anyone" come to be false?
                      As an ending.

                      We know that they told someone or else nobody would have known about it.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        As an ending.

                        We know that they told someone or else nobody would have known about it.
                        I don't see the claim as being in any way false.

                        "They fled the tomb without saying anything to anyone" does not imply that they never said anything about the events at the tomb. It does imply that other people were present at the tomb.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          I don't see the claim as being in any way false.

                          "They fled the tomb without saying anything to anyone" does not imply that they never said anything about the events at the tomb. It does imply that other people were present at the tomb.
                          That is the implication and without the other gospels how it would have naturally been understood.

                          It is quite a neat literary trick designed to inspire enthusiasm among recent converts to tell others about Christ and His message -- which as Matthew informs us, is exactly what they're supposed to be doing.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            That is the implication and without the other gospels how it would have naturally been understood.

                            It is quite a neat literary trick designed to inspire enthusiasm among recent converts to tell others about Christ and His message -- which as Matthew informs us, is exactly what they're supposed to be doing.
                            An interpretation by the immediate audience that the women defied the instruction given in verse 7 seems highly unlikely.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              An interpretation by the immediate audience that the women defied the instruction given in verse 7 seems highly unlikely.
                              The verse says they were supposed to tell Peter but as v.8 says that "they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid."

                              That's where it ends. Taken by itself, Mark has the women remaining silent.

                              Of course we know they didn't remain silent or else nobody would have known about the empty tomb.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                The verse says they were supposed to tell Peter but as v.8 says that "they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid."

                                That's where it ends. Taken by itself, Mark has the women remaining silent.

                                Of course we know they didn't remain silent or else nobody would have known about the empty tomb.
                                So we are to believe that Mark's immediate audience would have believed that Mark was saying the women never spoke of the events at the tomb to anyone, and would simply have accepted his statement rather than declaring it nonsense.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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