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"All men will hate you because of me" - something any cult leader could say?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I never dismissed anything Muhammed said. In fact, you have yet to quote anything he may have said, so what is there for me to dismiss? What I have done is show you that the doctrine of Taqyi was not established by Muhammed, nor was it a prediction but a response to a situation currently being faced by Muslims.


    They tried to stone Jesus for blasphemy because he had angered them. He was otherwise still able to move about freely, and there is no indication that the disciples themselves were ever in any danger until later.
    "Nope, no persecution to see here? Just a near-stoning!" You fundies are a riot!

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

      "Nope, no persecution to see here? Just a near-stoning!" You fundies are a riot!
      What about the rest of it, that Jesus was otherwise still able to move about freely, and there is no indication that the disciples themselves were ever in any danger until later?

      But regardless, you have completely failed to support your assertion that accurate predictions of persecution is something that any religious leader could make. Certainly your ignorant claims about Islam blew up in your face and left your ears ringing.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

        "Nope, no persecution to see here? Just a near-stoning!" You fundies are a riot!
        ...of Jesus, yes. Get back to me when you find an indication that the disciples were also going to be stoned. The fact that you feel the need to twist the facts and mock rather than make a good case for your position speaks volumes.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          ...of Jesus, yes. Get back to me when you find an indication that the disciples were also going to be stoned. The fact that you feel the need to twist the facts and mock rather than make a good case for your position speaks volumes.
          Ah yes, the near stoning of their leader is not an indication that they could be stoned for teaching what their leader teaches. My goodness you fundies are mind-boggling

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

            Ah yes, the near stoning of their leader is not an indication that they could be stoned for teaching what their leader teaches. My goodness you fundies are mind-boggling
            Perhaps you should note the circumstances of the prediction. There was opportunity to nab his disciples when Jesus was arrested, but the authorities didn't bother. Again, I note the reach for mockery in lieu of factual analysis. Keep up the good work, bro.
            Last edited by One Bad Pig; 07-06-2021, 04:04 PM.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

              Lol I suspect he'll deny that even more than this. He's already ignoring how Muhammed literally not only predicted persecution but also set up a specific doctrine to be used in such a time.
              Well he was not overly popular with some of his fellow Arab neighbours.

              And now my blushing - I omitted the "u". It should have been homoousion!



              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Perhaps you should note the circumstances of the prediction. There was opportunity to nab his disciples when Jesus was arrested, but the authorities didn't bother. Again, I note the reach for mockery in lieu of factual analysis. Keep up the good work, bro.
                And even before the attempted stoning, Jesus said in Luke 6 that his followers would be hated and persecuted:

                Scripture Verse: Luke 6:22-23

                Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets.

                © Copyright Original Source


                and in Matthew 10

                Scripture Verse: Matthew 10

                Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

                © Copyright Original Source


                If this is such a commonplace prediction of religious leaders, as Gondwanaland has asserted, then surely he can provide some evidence in support. His claims about Islam were proven false (and I notice he has completely abandoned that angle in response), so maybe he has something else?
                Last edited by Mountain Man; 07-06-2021, 04:17 PM.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  I decided to do Gondwanaland's homework for him and found this:

                  It is interesting to note that there is not a single tradition on Taqiya from any Imam prior to Al-Baqir, which is a sufficient proof that the doctrine of Taqiya was first introduced by him and was further elaborated by Ja'far, and that it was, in fact, a need of the time and the circumstances in which they were living and working out the tenets for their followers.

                  https://www.al-islam.org/origins-and...ctrine-imamate

                  Al-Baqir didn't rise to power until long after Muhammed's death. Furthermore, I can find nothing to indicate that Muhammed predicted that his followers would be hated because of him, or that they would face persecution.
                  It Also not used by the Shite Muslims till longer after as well https://www.encyclopedia.com/religio...d-maps/taqiyya

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Perhaps you should note the circumstances of the prediction. There was opportunity to nab his disciples when Jesus was arrested, but the authorities didn't bother.
                    Who were the λῃστάς λῃσταί [Mark 15.27] [Matthew 27.38] crucified with him? It is not improbable that they were members of his own group.
                    Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 07-06-2021, 07:59 PM.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                      This is the sort of overly literal pedantry that gets people laughed out of threads.
                      I must remember these, your words, next time that you cling to a verse.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        This is the sort of overly literal pedantry that gets people laughed out of threads.
                        In post 20 I wrote:-
                        I'm waiting for you to show specific verses in all gospels to assert your assertion, MM.
                        And I'm not going to get any, methinks....
                        ...waiting......


                        Nothing? Just your facetious reply?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          This is false, as MM demonstrated.



                          Don't let facts get in the way of your narrative, hey?

                          Consistency doesn't appear to be your thing either; you assumed in one post he made the prediction, then followed that directly with a post casting doubt that he said it. Which is it, kemosabe?
                          He "demonstrated" it by quoting a Muslim who might have been engaging in the act of taqqiya. The word "taqqiya" might not have showed up in documents until later, but the doctrine of it shows up in the Q'uran.

                          Q'uran Surah 16:106. Whoever renounces faith in God after having believed—except for someone who is compelled, while his heart rests securely in faith—but whoever willingly opens up his heart to disbelief—upon them falls wrath from God, and for them is a tremendous torment.

                          Surah 3:28. Believers are not to take disbelievers for friends instead of believers. Whoever does that has nothing to do with God, unless it is to protect your own selves against them. God warns you to beware of Him. To God is the destiny.

                          29. Say, “Whether you conceal what is in your hearts, or disclose it, God knows it.” He knows everything in the heavens and the earth. God is Powerful over everything.

                          I don't agree with Gondwanaland that Mohammed predicted persecution in advance, but I do agree with him that such a prediction isn't really compelling for any religious leader to make even if it does come true.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                            I don't agree with Gondwanaland that Mohammed predicted persecution in advance, but I do agree with him that such a prediction isn't really compelling for any religious leader to make even if it does come true.
                            That really wasn't the point of this thread. I mentioned elsewhere that Christians facing persecution is not surprising because Jesus promised it would happen. Gond suggested that such predictions are common among religious leaders, and therefore, Jesus being accurate on this point is trivial. I was curious if it was true that other religious leaders have made similar predictions and asked Gond if he had any support for his assertion. Apparently he doesn't. The best he has been able to do is point to Islam which has a doctrine that was established as a response to persecution rather than being a prediction.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                              He "demonstrated" it by quoting a Muslim who might have been engaging in the act of taqqiya. The word "taqqiya" might not have showed up in documents until later, but the doctrine of it shows up in the Q'uran.

                              Q'uran Surah 16:106. Whoever renounces faith in God after having believed—except for someone who is compelled, while his heart rests securely in faith—but whoever willingly opens up his heart to disbelief—upon them falls wrath from God, and for them is a tremendous torment.

                              Surah 3:28. Believers are not to take disbelievers for friends instead of believers. Whoever does that has nothing to do with God, unless it is to protect your own selves against them. God warns you to beware of Him. To God is the destiny.

                              29. Say, “Whether you conceal what is in your hearts, or disclose it, God knows it.” He knows everything in the heavens and the earth. God is Powerful over everything.

                              I don't agree with Gondwanaland that Mohammed predicted persecution in advance, but I do agree with him that such a prediction isn't really compelling for any religious leader to make even if it does come true.
                              This doesn't really say what to do when faced with persecution; all it establishes is that it is permissible, if tactically advantageous, to conceal one's faith. This is in stark contrast to Christianity, which teaches that one should stand strong in one's faith regardless of persecution.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Who were the λῃστάς λῃσταί [Mark 15.27] [Matthew 27.38] crucified with him? It is not improbable that they were members of his own group.
                                Fascinating. What evidence leads you to posit this?
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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