Originally posted by Mountain Man
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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"All men will hate you because of me" - something any cult leader could say?
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
"Nope, no persecution to see here? Just a near-stoning!" You fundies are a riot!
But regardless, you have completely failed to support your assertion that accurate predictions of persecution is something that any religious leader could make. Certainly your ignorant claims about Islam blew up in your face and left your ears ringing.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
"Nope, no persecution to see here? Just a near-stoning!" You fundies are a riot!
Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post...of Jesus, yes. Get back to me when you find an indication that the disciples were also going to be stoned. The fact that you feel the need to twist the facts and mock rather than make a good case for your position speaks volumes.
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
Ah yes, the near stoning of their leader is not an indication that they could be stoned for teaching what their leader teaches. My goodness you fundies are mind-bogglingLast edited by One Bad Pig; 07-06-2021, 04:04 PM.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
- 2 likes
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
Lol I suspect he'll deny that even more than this. He's already ignoring how Muhammed literally not only predicted persecution but also set up a specific doctrine to be used in such a time.
And now my blushing - I omitted the "u". It should have been homoousion!
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostPerhaps you should note the circumstances of the prediction. There was opportunity to nab his disciples when Jesus was arrested, but the authorities didn't bother. Again, I note the reach for mockery in lieu of factual analysis. Keep up the good work, bro.
and in Matthew 10
If this is such a commonplace prediction of religious leaders, as Gondwanaland has asserted, then surely he can provide some evidence in support. His claims about Islam were proven false (and I notice he has completely abandoned that angle in response), so maybe he has something else?Last edited by Mountain Man; 07-06-2021, 04:17 PM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI decided to do Gondwanaland's homework for him and found this:
It is interesting to note that there is not a single tradition on Taqiya from any Imam prior to Al-Baqir, which is a sufficient proof that the doctrine of Taqiya was first introduced by him and was further elaborated by Ja'far, and that it was, in fact, a need of the time and the circumstances in which they were living and working out the tenets for their followers.
https://www.al-islam.org/origins-and...ctrine-imamate
Al-Baqir didn't rise to power until long after Muhammed's death. Furthermore, I can find nothing to indicate that Muhammed predicted that his followers would be hated because of him, or that they would face persecution.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostPerhaps you should note the circumstances of the prediction. There was opportunity to nab his disciples when Jesus was arrested, but the authorities didn't bother.
Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 07-06-2021, 07:59 PM."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
This is the sort of overly literal pedantry that gets people laughed out of threads.
I'm waiting for you to show specific verses in all gospels to assert your assertion, MM.
And I'm not going to get any, methinks....
...waiting......
Nothing? Just your facetious reply?
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThis is false, as MM demonstrated.
Don't let facts get in the way of your narrative, hey?
Consistency doesn't appear to be your thing either; you assumed in one post he made the prediction, then followed that directly with a post casting doubt that he said it. Which is it, kemosabe?
Q'uran Surah 16:106. Whoever renounces faith in God after having believed—except for someone who is compelled, while his heart rests securely in faith—but whoever willingly opens up his heart to disbelief—upon them falls wrath from God, and for them is a tremendous torment.
Surah 3:28. Believers are not to take disbelievers for friends instead of believers. Whoever does that has nothing to do with God, unless it is to protect your own selves against them. God warns you to beware of Him. To God is the destiny.
29. Say, “Whether you conceal what is in your hearts, or disclose it, God knows it.” He knows everything in the heavens and the earth. God is Powerful over everything.
I don't agree with Gondwanaland that Mohammed predicted persecution in advance, but I do agree with him that such a prediction isn't really compelling for any religious leader to make even if it does come true.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostI don't agree with Gondwanaland that Mohammed predicted persecution in advance, but I do agree with him that such a prediction isn't really compelling for any religious leader to make even if it does come true.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
He "demonstrated" it by quoting a Muslim who might have been engaging in the act of taqqiya. The word "taqqiya" might not have showed up in documents until later, but the doctrine of it shows up in the Q'uran.
Q'uran Surah 16:106. Whoever renounces faith in God after having believed—except for someone who is compelled, while his heart rests securely in faith—but whoever willingly opens up his heart to disbelief—upon them falls wrath from God, and for them is a tremendous torment.
Surah 3:28. Believers are not to take disbelievers for friends instead of believers. Whoever does that has nothing to do with God, unless it is to protect your own selves against them. God warns you to beware of Him. To God is the destiny.
29. Say, “Whether you conceal what is in your hearts, or disclose it, God knows it.” He knows everything in the heavens and the earth. God is Powerful over everything.
I don't agree with Gondwanaland that Mohammed predicted persecution in advance, but I do agree with him that such a prediction isn't really compelling for any religious leader to make even if it does come true.
Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostWho were the λῃστάς λῃσταί [Mark 15.27] [Matthew 27.38] crucified with him? It is not improbable that they were members of his own group.
Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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