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"All men will hate you because of me" - something any cult leader could say?

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  • "All men will hate you because of me" - something any cult leader could say?

    Conversation from another thread:

    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Jesus promised that the Church would be persecuted.
    Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
    Eh, most leaders of new cults and religions could make the same prediction and be "right"
    In each of the four gospels, Jesus is recorded as saying that Christians will be hated. Note that he was not responding to current circumstances but making a prediction about what would happen in the future to those who followed him.

    So is it true? Is this a prediction that any new religion or cult could make? Not simply that people will think you odd, or that people won't accept your message, but that you will be literally hated and persecuted?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  • #2
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Conversation from another thread:




    In each of the four gospels, Jesus is recorded as saying that Christians will be hated. Note that he was not responding to current circumstances but making a prediction about what would happen in the future to those who followed him.

    So is it true? Is this a prediction that any new religion or cult could make? Not simply that people will think you odd, or that people won't accept your message, but that you will be literally hated and persecuted?
    Yes. JWs, Mormons, hell, even Muhammed all do this. So do other smaller cults/religions.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

      Yes. JWs, Mormons, hell, even Muhammed all do this. So do other smaller cults/religions.
      Do you have anything specific to support this assertion?
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

        Yes. JWs, Mormons, hell, even Muhammed all do this. So do other smaller cults/religions.
        As MM said, I need citations, especially from the first two. I know that your reference to Islam is wrong. I doubt they make actual predictions of persecution like those made of Jesus (though I can't verify that for sure), but I what I do know for sure is that it's a militant religion with a "fight back" ideology. Their teaching is essentially that in the event of persecution the response is to fight back in like manner.
        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seanD View Post

          As MM said, I need citations, especially from the first two. I know that your reference to Islam is wrong. I doubt they make actual predictions of persecution like those made of Jesus (though I can't verify that for sure), but I what I do know for sure is that it's a militant religion with a "fight back" ideology. Their teaching is essentially that in the event of persecution the response is to fight back in like manner.
          Pretty sure Islam was proactive from the beginning and didn't wait to be persecuted before taking up arms against the infidels.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

            Pretty sure Islam was proactive from the beginning and didn't wait to be persecuted before taking up arms against the infidels.
            From what I understand the movement started by Muhammad faced initial persecution by his peers, but there is no record I know of him predicting this beforehand. But there is clear record of him declaring that persecution is justification for like violence. So Gond making that comparison couldn't be anymore off the mark.
            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              Do you have anything specific to support this assertion?
              Jehovas Witnesses are the worst of the bunch. They literally say that the entire world will persecute them and that it is a sign of the End coming. Mucht like Christians. Muslims do similar things: Muhammed and early Muslim literally even invented Taqiyyah, which not only predicted oppression/persecution, but specifically wrote out how to handle varying levels of it, including allowing them to publicly dissimulate/deny their faith while secretly still practicing/believing it, and working against the people/government they view as 'persecuting' them.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                Pretty sure Islam was proactive from the beginning and didn't wait to be persecuted before taking up arms against the infidels.
                Taqiyyah. That is all.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seanD View Post

                  As MM said, I need citations, especially from the first two.
                  JWs literally believe that the end times are near the more they are persecuted. They think that the Nazi treatment of their faith was the start of the end times, and that they will be more and more persecuted as the End nears. I'm close friends with several who escaped the cult of JW.

                  Mormonism was literally born of persecution, and Joseph Smith fed off of that while 'reading' his tablets, and leading his followers. They literally got chased out of town after town, state after state. That was the entire reason they went first to the 'Garden of Eden' in Missouri and then to Utah, and then literally fought the US military in Utah.
                  I know that your reference to Islam is wrong. I doubt they make actual predictions of persecution like those made of Jesus (though I can't verify that for sure), but I what I do know for sure is that it's a militant religion with a "fight back" ideology. Their teaching is essentially that in the event of persecution the response is to fight back in like manner.
                  No, it is not wrong, THey literally have their own doctrine in place of how to hide their religious beliefs with Allah's blessing, for when they are persecuted, my dude. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                    Jehovas Witnesses are the worst of the bunch. They literally say that the entire world will persecute them and that it is a sign of the End coming. Mucht like Christians. Muslims do similar things: Muhammed and early Muslim literally even invented Taqiyyah, which not only predicted oppression/persecution, but specifically wrote out how to handle varying levels of it, including allowing them to publicly dissimulate/deny their faith while secretly still practicing/believing it, and working against the people/government they view as 'persecuting' them.
                    So nothing more concrete than that? No historical records? No documented sayings from other religious leaders promising persecution before it happened? Just your unsupported assurances that it must be so?
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                      Taqiyyah. That is all.
                      That's not any prediction about future persecution. That's a tenet on what is permissible in the event of persecution if it's life threatening. You're comparing apples to oranges. This would be a religious tenet comparable to Jesus' instruction to "turn the other cheek" or "those who deny me, I will deny" in the event of persecution. That isn't predicting persecution in a future time.

                      Man, you're making me have to research this stuff on my own.
                      Last edited by seanD; 07-05-2021, 06:47 PM.
                      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        So nothing more concrete than that? No historical records? No documented sayings from other religious leaders promising persecution before it happened? Just your unsupported assurances that it must be so?
                        I'm not here to hold your hand, nor to educate you, H_A.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seanD View Post

                          That's not any prediction about future persecution. That's a tenet on what is permissible in the event of persecution if it's life threatening. You're comparing apples to oranges. This would be a religious tenet comparable to Jesus' instruction to "turn the other cheek" or "those who deny me, I will deny" in the event of persecution. That isn't predicting persecution in a future time.

                          Man, you're making me have to research this stuff on my own.
                          Muhammed: "Hey guys, here's what you do when you're persecuted so much you fear for your life, and it's permitted by Allah, so when that happens, this is a list of the things you can do."

                          seanD: "Lawl, that's not a prediction of future severe persecution, he just said it for he hell of it"


                          Jesus: "Yeah guys, you're gonna be persecuted at some unnamed point in the future"

                          SeanD &MM: "Oh my flippin gosh, what an amazing prediction, no one could ever predict such a thing, he's a troooooooo prophet!"

                          Last edited by Gondwanaland; 07-05-2021, 06:59 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                            Muhammed: "Hey guys, here's what you do when you're persecuted so much you fear for your life, and it's permitted by Allah"

                            seanD: "Lawl, that's not a prediction of future severe persecution, he just said it for he hell of it"

                            No, you're wrong, and this took me but a cursory effort to research it. Remember when I explained to you the distinction of a leader accommodating his belief during present persecution and actually predicting persecution at a future time? Taqiyyah was an accommodation of their belief at the time they being persecuted. One of Muhammed's associates had to deny his belief to save his life, and Taqiyyah addressed that issue. It wasn't any tenet invented before they were being persecuted. I'm not sure how you can't see the difference.
                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                              Muhammed: "Hey guys, here's what you do when you're persecuted so much you fear for your life, and it's permitted by Allah, so when that happens, this is a list of the things you can do."

                              seanD: "Lawl, that's not a prediction of future severe persecution, he just said it for he hell of it"


                              Jesus: "Yeah guys, you're gonna be persecuted at some unnamed point in the future"

                              SeanD &MM: "Oh my flippin gosh, what an amazing prediction, no one could ever predict such a thing, he's a troooooooo prophet!"

                              Well, since you edited your post, I'll address the edit.

                              No one is saying a prediction like that can't possibly be made. The initial argument was that why would he make it? The leader of a religion wants converts and wants the converts he has to stay. Remember that argument? You're just moving the goalposts now (apparently because you realized how wrong you were about the Taqiyyah so you made a quick edit) and just circulating back to where we were at the start of convo.
                              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                              Comment

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