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Is There Something Wrong In The World?

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  • Is There Something Wrong In The World?

    The Christian would say that man is fallen, i.e. we seem to be bent towards wrongdoing. And the standard to judge wrong action would be found in the moral teachings of the New Testament. But wouldn't the materialist or atheist have to agree, that at bottom, moral right or wrong don't exist - we are just animals doing what animals do. Would we bring moral judgement against the lion for killing the gazelle, or against one chimp killing another chimp? Are not our ethical musing merely illusions? Why is Dawkins wrong: "The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference."



    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    "Modern masters of science are much impressed with the need of beginning all inquiry with a fact. The ancient masters of religion were quite equally impressed with that necessity. They began with the fact of sin – a fact as practical as potatoes. Whether or no man could be washed in miraculous waters, there was no doubt at any rate that he wanted washing. But certain religious leaders in London, not mere materialists, have begun in our day not to deny the highly disputable water, but to deny the indisputable dirt. Certain new theologians dispute original sin, which is the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved." (G.K. Chesterton)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      The Christian would say that man is fallen, i.e. we seem to be bent towards wrongdoing.
      The vast majority of people behave the vast majority of the time in ways that Christians would deem morally right. Wouldn't it therefore be true to say that humans are bent towards rightdoing?

      Your theology seems to be deeply at odds with reality.

      Comment


      • #4
        Yay, another morality thread where seer resets and forgets everything he's been told and corrected about by several users over goodness knows how many years!

        I can't wait to hear his same old simplistic arguments like pages of threads dozens of posts long haven't happened!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
          Yay, another morality thread where seer resets and forgets everything he's been told and corrected about by several users over goodness knows how many years!

          I can't wait to hear his same old simplistic arguments like pages of threads dozens of posts long haven't happened!
          His amnesia gets a bit tiresome.

          His recent new worst argument of "Evolution can't be true cos humans can reason in ways monkeys can't" was a pleasant change of pace, instead of the usual status quo of him making false statements about morality until everyone dies of boredom correcting him after 135 pages of threads.

          Comment


          • #6
            I think only Carpe & Tass had/have the stamina to put up with it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              The vast majority of people behave the vast majority of the time in ways that Christians would deem morally right. Wouldn't it therefore be true to say that humans are bent towards rightdoing?

              Your theology seems to be deeply at odds with reality.
              Of course all men are made in the image of God, but I'm speaking of what some would call evil. We all have that tendency - unless you consider yourself a perfect moral specimen.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
                Yay, another morality thread where seer resets and forgets everything he's been told and corrected about by several users over goodness knows how many years!

                I can't wait to hear his same old simplistic arguments like pages of threads dozens of posts long haven't happened!
                The question is why would the atheist object to perfectly natural behaviors. Why label them at all? When one Chimp kills another we don't bring a moral judgement. Animals doing what animals do. Why are we any different? Because we can invent moral categories?
                Dawkins again:

                "As scientists, we believe that human brains, though they may not work in the same way as man-made computers, are as surely governed by the laws of physics. When a computer malfunctions, we do not punish it. We track down the problem and fix it, usually by replacing a damaged component, either in hardware or software...

                ..But doesn't a truly scientific, mechanistic view of the nervous system make nonsense of the very idea of responsibility, whether diminished or not? Any crime, however heinous, is in principle to be blamed on antecedent conditions acting through the accused's physiology, heredity and environment. Don't judicial hearings to decide questions of blame or diminished responsibility make as little sense for a faulty man as for a Fawlty car?."

                https://www.edge.org/response-detail/11416
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  His amnesia gets a bit tiresome.

                  His recent new worst argument of "Evolution can't be true cos humans can reason in ways monkeys can't" was a pleasant change of pace, instead of the usual status quo of him making false statements about morality until everyone dies of boredom correcting him after 135 pages of threads.
                  Coming from one who claimed to be a moral realist but could not defend his position even on a basic level. Please...As far as evolution - do you believe that humans have free will? You said you did. Is there any evidence that monkeys, or dogs, cats have free will? Is that not a significant difference?
                  Last edited by seer; 06-21-2021, 05:34 AM.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dawkins is right. Morality is species-specific and depending upon the intelligence of that species you can have evolutionary, individual, and objective moralities.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Of course all men are made in the image of God, but I'm speaking of what some would call evil. We all have that tendency
                      If you were to program a robot to take random actions, in any situation that had a morally good option and a morally bad one, it would make the morally good choice 50% of the time.

                      I observe that humans in general tend to take the morally good choice in such situations 99%+ of the time.

                      Therefore no 'tendency to evil' exists, it's a 'tendency to good' that exists. If your theology teaches that humans have a tendency to evil, then your theology is outright empirically false.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Coming from one who claimed to be a moral realist but could not defend his position even on a basic level.
                        Given you have an utterly absurd and utterly indefensible position on morality and I have never seen you make a good argument in hundreds of pages of threads, I find your claims about me amusing.

                        do you believe that humans have free will?
                        I experience free choice in my conscious actions.

                        I don't find mechanistic arguments of what constitutes free will very interesting, though I have read about them. None of the mechanistic definitions seem to pay any attention to the experience / qualia of having free will, which is what I consciously experience and value.

                        Is there any evidence that monkeys, or dogs, cats have free will?
                        I do not experience being a cat or a dog. I can't know what their experiences are like as they cannot sufficiently communicate them to me.

                        I would tend to assume that there is no mechanistic difference between the type of free will animals have and the type of free will humans have (e.g. if one has Libertarian Free Will the other probably does so, and vice versa if not) since the physical/chemical processes occurring in their brains are presumably very similar. But that would be a complete guess on my part, and clearly human brains have functionality other animals don't as evolution has resulted in differences between our brains and those of our nearest evolutionary neighbours such as Bonobos and Chimpanzees.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          If you were to program a robot to take random actions, in any situation that had a morally good option and a morally bad one, it would make the morally good choice 50% of the time.

                          I observe that humans in general tend to take the morally good choice in such situations 99%+ of the time.

                          Therefore no 'tendency to evil' exists, it's a 'tendency to good' that exists. If your theology teaches that humans have a tendency to evil, then your theology is outright empirically false.
                          That all depends on your definition of what is "morally good" Starlight.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            If you were to program a robot to take random actions, in any situation that had a morally good option and a morally bad one, it would make the morally good choice 50% of the time.

                            I observe that humans in general tend to take the morally good choice in such situations 99%+ of the time.

                            Therefore no 'tendency to evil' exists, it's a 'tendency to good' that exists. If your theology teaches that humans have a tendency to evil, then your theology is outright empirically false.
                            If that is the case then you have led an incredibly lucky life. Outside of a small group of close friends my experience has been the opposite with 99% or greater people choosing to treat each other terribly. Even within my own family there is quite a bit skewed towards the wrong end.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              Given you have an utterly absurd and utterly indefensible position on morality and I have never seen you make a good argument in hundreds of pages of threads, I find your claims about me amusing.
                              It is simple Star, either there are universal moral truths that are enforceable and binding or there are not. And the problem is you can not get there without some form of theism. And you would have to explain why you find that position absurd and indefensible. Or any more absurd or indefensible than your position, which you could not even articulate.

                              I don't find mechanistic arguments of what constitutes free will very interesting, though I have read about them. None of the mechanistic definitions seem to pay any attention to the experience / qualia of having free will, which is what I consciously experience and value.
                              See we can agree on something!


                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

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