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Why is moral relativism such a bad thing?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Here you're alleging our sense of justice can be / is rational. Yet in other threads you've argued the opposite. You don't seem very consistent in your claims.


    I agree with your view that justice can be rationally-grounded and not emotional. But once you say that, you're admitting that people worldwide and through history can arrive at the same views on justice, via reason. And thus you've arrived at a universal moral code, which is grounded in reason and not emotion, that all humans can converge to regardless of culture or religion.
    Actually no, the theist can appeal to the universal law of God. You do not have that option therefore moral goals would be relative. Communists or Muslims for instance would not put much or any value on human rights. So culture or religion very much so come into play. And there are any number of rational moral theories out there; Deontology and Consequentialism being two, and are opposites.


    Last edited by seer; 05-28-2021, 07:02 PM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Machinist View Post

      Would you mind explaining this? I get the first part, but not the second.
      Inequality can be determined objectively, unfairness (or at least the "wrongness" of it) not so much.

      Comment


      • #18
        So seer, staying on your claim that thought our sense of justice / justice itself, can be/is rationally based, are you now saying that you only view it as able to be 'rationally' based by appealing to God and/or a theistic worldview?
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #19
          I don't see why not. Why does a sense of fairness have to be emotional? Why does seeing things as unequal have to be emotional?-Seer

          Seeing things as unequal does not have to be emotional. But unequal does not necessarily mean unfair.-Stoic

          The above is what I failed to grasp. I just didn't understand what this had to do with what I was asking. This thread was for my own edification. It has been proven to me, shown plain as the nose on my face, that there cannot be Universal Absolutes without a Universal Absolute Mind. It is simply an axiom, a clever fidget spinner of logic, and it is what it is.

          In the atheistic worldview, it's all relative. I get it, and i'm just asking now what? What am I supposed to think of atheists now? I surely don't see them acting out or, as far as I can tell, contemplating stealing, killing, raping, etc, like theists say is the only rational way they should be acting. I don't think that it follows. I cannot explain why, I just don't see it.

          Take raping for instance, just say that the atheist is attracted to this beautiful woman. If it's all relative, he should go and take from her what pleases him. But what if he doesn't find that erotic? I mean really, personally, for me, (and it has nothing to do with God or even understanding that there cannot be Universal Absolutes without a Universal Absolute Mind) but forcing myself upon a woman does not evoke any eroticism in me. The domination aspect, the soulical violation...there is no sensation in that for me, nothing sexy or erotic. Why can't atheists have preferences like that, that are based in what they want or don't want and why can 't that be rational? They are human just like me. Why can't they also have preferences that guide them through life, and form the basis of their decision making?

          I'm just not seeing that atheists are living irrationally by their underlying assumptions that morality is ultimately relative, yet they are living as upright citizens just like anyone else. There have been a lot of attacks on atheists in this and other forums with this argument. Life does not happen on that micro resolution of logic. Nobody ratiocinates the square roots of their axioms when making day to day decisions. That is what I was talking about, the day to day. Atheists seem to have the ability to live as uprightly as any Christian that I know of. I don't see that they are irrational in any sense of the word.



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          • #20
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            So seer, staying on your claim that thought our sense of justice / justice itself, can be/is rationally based, are you now saying that you only view it as able to be 'rationally' based by appealing to God and/or a theistic worldview?
            Let me make my self clear. You can create internally rational moral systems like Deontology or Consequentialism. But these systems contradict each other and there is no universal grounding. To rationally get to universals or absolutes you need God.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Stoic View Post

              Inequality can be determined objectively, unfairness (or at least the "wrongness" of it) not so much.
              I didn't understand how that addressed the question that Seer asked you.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                I didn't understand how that addressed the question that Seer asked you.
                I'm guessing you mean this question: "Why does a sense of fairness have to be emotional?"

                My answer: If anyone wants to claim that unfairness can be logically shown to be wrong, then let him show me.

                (And no cheap tricks like trying to define it as wrong. Anything can be shown to be wrong that way, including motherhood and apple pie.)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                  I'm guessing you mean this question: "Why does a sense of fairness have to be emotional?"

                  My answer: If anyone wants to claim that unfairness can be logically shown to be wrong, then let him show me.

                  (And no cheap tricks like trying to define it as wrong. Anything can be shown to be wrong that way, including motherhood and apple pie.)
                  It violates the law of God...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post

                    It violates the law of God...
                    Cool. Now all you have to do is show logically that there is a law of God.

                    <edit>

                    And that unfairness violates it.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                      I'm just not seeing that atheists are living irrationally by their underlying assumptions that morality is ultimately relative, yet they are living as upright citizens just like anyone else. There have been a lot of attacks on atheists in this and other forums with this argument. Life does not happen on that micro resolution of logic. Nobody ratiocinates the square roots of their axioms when making day to day decisions. That is what I was talking about, the day to day. Atheists seem to have the ability to live as uprightly as any Christian that I know of. I don't see that they are irrational in any sense of the word.
                      That is not really the point. The most brilliant and moral man I knew was my Ju Jitsu master - he was a stone cold atheist. But of course he and most people you are referring to were raised in a largely Christian culture. A good Maoist or Stalinist would be an exemplar of moral virtue by executing political dissidents by the truck load. So very much culturally dependent.

                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                        Cool. Now all you have to do is show logically that there is a law of God.

                        <edit>

                        And that unfairness violates it.
                        Can you show me logically that what goes on in your mind corresponds to reality?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post

                          Can you show me logically that what goes on in your mind corresponds to reality?
                          I'm emotionally invested in the idea that what goes on in my mind corresponds to reality.

                          And there's not much I can do about it if it doesn't.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                            I'm emotionally invested in the idea that what goes on in my mind corresponds to reality.

                            And there's not much I can do about it if it doesn't.
                            I can see that. Your sense of of what makes sense in the world around you is emotional at it's core. Cracks in the Cosmic Egg can be fearful, and fear is a powerful emotion. We all want to know (or at least believe) that our map is solid.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by seer View Post

                              That is not really the point. The most brilliant and moral man I knew was my Ju Jitsu master - he was a stone cold atheist. But of course he and most people you are referring to were raised in a largely Christian culture. A good Maoist or Stalinist would be an exemplar of moral virtue by executing political dissidents by the truck load. So very much culturally dependent.
                              But atheists agree that it's all culturally dependent.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                                I'm emotionally invested in the idea that what goes on in my mind corresponds to reality.

                                And there's not much I can do about it if it doesn't.
                                Again Stoic, one can make a deductive argument for moral universals if you start with a Moral Creator. But that is not a premise you would except.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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