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Atheism, Slavery, And The Moral High Ground...

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    I doubt if they think conceptually. I can train a dog to get a treat if he rolls over. Is he really evaluating the potential consequences or benefits of rolling over? Or is it just a trained reflex?

    Conceptual thinking is the practice of connecting abstract, disparate ideas to deepen understanding, create new ideas and reflect on past decisions.
    I'd say there's a whole continuum between operant conditioning and conceptual thinking. My dog would instinctively chase squirrels as soon as she saw them, but eventually learned to do things like let the squirrel get farther from the tree, and approach very slowly until the squirrel saw her. (She still hasn't caught one, and I don't think she would know what to do with it if she did. But the chase doesn't look quite as hopeless as it once did.)

    It certainly appears that she has modified her behavior to overcome her instincts based on a knowledge of the likely consequences.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

      I'd say there's a whole continuum between operant conditioning and conceptual thinking. My dog would instinctively chase squirrels as soon as she saw them, but eventually learned to do things like let the squirrel get farther from the tree, and approach very slowly until the squirrel saw her. (She still hasn't caught one, and I don't think she would know what to do with it if she did. But the chase doesn't look quite as hopeless as it once did.)

      It certainly appears that she has modified her behavior to overcome her instincts based on a knowledge of the likely consequences.
      Animals are clever, but I suggest that what your dog is now doing is still instinctual. Do you really believe that he was thinking: Well if I approach the squirrel more slowly I might have a better chance of catching it. Or did one set of hard wired behaviors simply override another set of hardwired behaviors?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        Animals are clever, but I suggest that what your dog is now doing is still instinctual. Do you really believe that he was thinking: Well if I approach the squirrel more slowly I might have a better chance of catching it.
        Have you ever had a smart dog? I seriously doubt that all their behaviors are instinctual.

        And then there are other large-brained animals.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxDZW4k8tCY

        Or did one set of hard wired behaviors simply override another set of hardwired behaviors?
        If you can ask that of other animals, I have to wonder why sufficiently advanced aliens studying our planet wouldn't ask the same thing of humans.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          You don't get to answer with a question Tass, please stop avoiding: Are all our behaviors determined by antecedent conditions or not.
          It is relevant to the argument whether or not our behaviors as Homo sapiens are the same as the behaviors of ALL human species and higher social animals. Are you arguing that Homo sapiens are somehow unique in this regard?

          So that one percent caused a very large and significant difference! So did that one percent allow us to have the freedom of will?
          It’s only a “difference” in the level of technical skills between Chimpanzees, Archaic humans and Homo-sapiens.

          No, Chimps aren't much different than a dog in that they operate on instinct. Or any other creature. Humans can and do act against instinct, can conceptually factor in long and short term consequences. Can will to override instinctual desires for future gain. Or not. That ability is a difference in kind.
          It is NOT a “difference in kind”. All humans and higher social animals are governed by an evolved instinct of communal living and necessary cooperative, reciprocal behavior. This, in turn dictates our social rules of behavior which, whilst quite possible to break these rules we are restrained by the possibility of social censure or punishment
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
            Have you ever had a smart dog? I seriously doubt that all their behaviors are instinctual.

            And then there are other large-brained animals.
            Well no, I have no evidence that animals, as clever as they can be, think conceptually - by the definition I quoted. Because something seriously separates us from other creatures. No art or writing, even on a privative level. A monkey may instinctively act in an altruistic manner, but I doubt that he is contemplating moral ideals and their ramifications. The proof is in the pudding - look at what man as accomplished compared to other creatures. Art, science, language, architecture, music, religion, etc... There is no comparison.


            ,
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

              It is relevant to the argument whether or not our behaviors as Homo sapiens are the same as the behaviors of ALL human species and higher social animals. Are you arguing that Homo sapiens are somehow unique in this regard?
              Of course we are unique on so many levels. We have the capacity to ignore instinct and freely choose to do otherwise. We think conceptually and can act, or not act, on ideals and concepts. The ability to reason out long term consequences of specific acts.



              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Well no, I have no evidence that animals, as clever as they can be, think conceptually - by the definition I quoted. Because something seriously separates us from other creatures. No art or writing, even on a privative level. A monkey may instinctively act in an altruistic manner, but I doubt that he is contemplating moral ideals and their ramifications. The proof is in the pudding - look at what man as accomplished compared to other creatures. Art, science, language, architecture, music, religion, etc... There is no comparison.
                There is no doubt that man has accomplished far more than other species. The open question (AFAIC) is whether it's because of anything more than being a social species and having a bigger brain with more neurons, along with living on land and having an opposable thumb.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post

                  Of course we are unique on so many levels. We have the capacity to ignore instinct and freely choose to do otherwise. We think conceptually and can act, or not act, on ideals and concepts. The ability to reason out long term consequences of specific acts.
                  According to recent genetic studies, modern humans bred with at least two groups of ancient humans: Neanderthals and Denisovans and that these both had language and primitive religious rituals. So we Homo sapiens are not all that “unique”.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post

                    I doubt if they think conceptually. I can train a dog to get a treat if he rolls over. Is he really evaluating the potential consequences or benefits of rolling over? Or is it just a trained reflex?

                    Conceptual thinking is the practice of connecting abstract, disparate ideas to deepen understanding, create new ideas and reflect on past decisions.
                    Kind of interesting that dogs can teach themselves to fake injuries.
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Nationalist.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                      There is no doubt that man has accomplished far more than other species. The open question (AFAIC) is whether it's because of anything more than being a social species and having a bigger brain with more neurons, along with living on land and having an opposable thumb.
                      Why would we expect bigger brains to do more than act instinctual? Monkeys have opposable thumbs, and bigger brains than birds yet they both operate on instinct. As a matter of fact some bird species seem more clever than apes.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                        That is a trained response, nothing beyond what instinct could produce, from your link:

                        Dogs learn from experience, and sometimes it only takes one incident to teach a dog a new skill.It’s the same way dogs learn how to sit, shake, and lay down. They learn that when they do a specific behavior, they experience a specific result. When they sit, for example, they get a treat. When they shake, they get a pat on the head. And when they limp, they get extra love and attention.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                          According to recent genetic studies, modern humans bred with at least two groups of ancient humans: Neanderthals and Denisovans and that these both had language and primitive religious rituals. So we Homo sapiens are not all that “unique”.
                          Really? Where is their writing or cave drawings? And what language did they speak? But if they were human perhaps they did have the ability to think conceptually.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                            There is no doubt that man has accomplished far more than other species. The open question (AFAIC) is whether it's because of anything more than being a social species and having a bigger brain with more neurons, along with living on land and having an opposable thumb.
                            Elephants are a social species, have a bigger brain than a human (about 3 times the size) and has 257 billion neurons compared to 86 billion in a human. And they have a trunk that acts like an arm with a tip that can function as an opposable thumb and they live on land.
                            Last edited by Sparko; 06-18-2021, 07:35 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post

                              Really? Where is their writing or cave drawings? And what language did they speak?
                              “Neanderthal artists made oldest-known cave paintings”

                              https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-02357-8

                              AND:

                              “Neanderthals could speak like modern humans, study suggests”

                              https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-25465102

                              But if they were human perhaps they did have the ability to think conceptually.
                              Highly probable given that Neanderthals and Denisovans were sufficiently biologically similar to Homo sapiens to interbreed with us.

                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                                Elephants are a social species, have a bigger brain than a human (about 3 times the size) and has 257 billion neurons compared to 86 billion in a human. And they have a trunk that acts like an arm with a tip that can function as an opposable thumb and they live on land.
                                You are right, it's a little more complicated than that.

                                Comment

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