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Atheism, Slavery, And The Moral High Ground...

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

    Primates, including the human primate, live communally because this is how they have evolved to live. Hence, they are naturally inclined to behave in such a way as to enhance social cohesion. Those that don’t are rejected by the community.
    THAT WAS NOT THE POINT! You said humans were not determined to live in community.



    Why would we be any different to our fellow primates in this regard - do our simian cousins have free will? Yes, or no?
    Just answer the question - do humans have free will? If not it is all determined. Remember you said: Our behavior is not ‘determined’ by Natural Selection but as a social species our evolved ‘instincts’ incline us to behave in certain ways to enhance. communal living.


    If we don't have freedom of the will it is all determined - from top to bottom. There is nothing else, out instincts are just as determined as anything else. Do you disagree?.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
      Do monkeys have free will?
      probably depends on what you mean by "free will" - can animals make choices? sure. Do they understand the implications of those choices? Probably not. Even my dog can choose to obey me or ignore me, or decide between two different toys or snacks. He will choose not to jump off of something that he knows is too high.


      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

        probably depends on what you mean by "free will" - can animals make choices? sure. Do they understand the implications of those choices? Probably not. Even my dog can choose to obey me or ignore me, or decide between two different toys or snacks. He will choose not to jump off of something that he knows is too high.
        What about a dog, kept outside, who sees the house is on fire, breaks out of pen, literally chews and batters its way inside, braving heat and smoke to rescue someone -- often receiving serious burns and serious smoke inhalation.

        Nobody trained the dog to do that.

        It would seem to fly in the face of the instinct of self-preservation.

        Is there something much deeper involved here than "pack mentality" or could "pack mentality" be far more complex than usually thought?

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          THAT WAS NOT THE POINT! You said humans were not determined to live in community.
          WHAT I said was that our specific behavior is not ‘determined’ by Natural Selection. But, as an evolved social species our ‘instincts’ incline us to behave cooperatively so as to enhance communal living. Some resist – e.g., mothers are naturally predisposed to nurture their children but a small number reject them. Just as some folk in every community are antisocial or psychopathic.

          Just answer the question - do humans have free will? If not it is all determined.
          Do Chimpanzees have free-will, given that they share 99% of our genome? If not why not?
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

            WHAT I said was that our specific behavior is not ‘determined’ by Natural Selection. But, as an evolved social species our ‘instincts’ incline us to behave cooperatively so as to enhance communal living. Some resist – e.g., mothers are naturally predisposed to nurture their children but a small number reject them. Just as some folk in every community are antisocial or psychopathic.
            So natural selection did not determine primates to live in community, did not determine their instincts? If not, what did?


            Do Chimpanzees have free-will, given that they share 99% of our genome? If not why not?
            So if we, or monkeys, don't have free will then it is all determined. Agreed?
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post

              So natural selection did not determine primates to live in community, did not determine their instincts? If not, what did?
              Natural Selection resulted in primates (including humans) evolving as a social species that instinctively depends upon cooperative communal living to survive. Just as Natural Selection resulted in some other species (e.g., bears) to be solitary animals with different survival instincts.

              So if we, or monkeys, don't have free will then it is all determined. Agreed?
              You assume that humans have libertarian free-will so, the question is do Chimpanzees have the same, given that they share 99% of our genome having descended from the same common ancestor? If not why not given that, like human primates, they are also a communal species with similar instincts and similar needs.
              Last edited by Tassman; 06-11-2021, 12:12 AM.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                Natural Selection resulted in primates (including humans) evolving as a social species that instinctively depends upon cooperative communal living to survive. Just as Natural Selection resulted in some other species (e.g., bears) to be solitary animals with different survival instincts.
                And exactly how is that not all determined?



                You assume that humans have libertarian free-will so, the question is do Chimpanzees have the same, given that they share 99% of our genome having descended from the same common ancestor? If not why not given that, like human primates, they are also a communal species with similar instincts and similar needs.
                So like the apes, it is all determined.

                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post

                  And exactly how is that not all determined?
                  Natural Selection is not fixed and inevitable. Evolutionary change is based on variation that arises unpredictably through time via random mutation.

                  So like the apes, it is all determined
                  Are you saying that there is no libertarian free-will for either the human ape or for our chimpanzee cousins?


                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                    Natural Selection is not fixed and inevitable. Evolutionary change is based on variation that arises unpredictably through time via random mutation.
                    Does that variation in NS lead to free will? Yes or no?



                    Are you saying that there is no libertarian free-will for either the human ape or for our chimpanzee cousins?
                    Again, we are not apes. Apes don't think conceptually, they do not write or do art or math or science. As far as I know they can not conceive of the long term consequences of actions, they don't muse about the golden rule, or reason morally. As far as I know, with apes, everything is done instinctively.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post

                      Does that variation in NS lead to free will? Yes or no?
                      “That variation” has resulted in the great apes (including us) and archaic humans such as Homo erectus and Neanderthals – with whom we interbred. Nine human species walked the Earth 300,000 years ago.
                      Have ALL these variants possessed libertarian free-will? If not why not?

                      http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/anthropology/neanderthals-denisovans-archaic-humans-victims-sixth-mass-extinction-07858.html

                      Again, we are not apes. Apes don't think conceptually, they do not write or do art or math or science.
                      Well, we ARE apes: “Humans are classified in the sub-group of primates known as the Great Apes. Although we are the most intelligent of the ‘ape’ family.

                      https://australian.museum/learn/science/human-evolution/humans-are-apes-great-apes/

                      As far as I know they can not conceive of the long term consequences of actions, they don't muse about the golden rule, or reason morally. As far as I know, with apes, everything is done instinctively.
                      The differences are merely of degree not of kind – as are the differences between us Homo sapiens and our archaic human ancestors.

                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                        “That variation” has resulted in the great apes (including us) and archaic humans such as Homo erectus and Neanderthals – with whom we interbred. Nine human species walked the Earth 300,000 years ago.
                        Have ALL these variants possessed libertarian free-will? If not why not?
                        Stop avoiding the question Tass. Are all our behaviors determined by antecedent conditions or not.

                        If we share 99% of DNA with chimps why don't we find privative art or writing in their groups?


                        The differences are merely of degree not of kind – as are the differences between us Homo sapiens and our archaic human ancestors.
                        Of course it is a difference in kind. One species lives in trees one flies to the moon. If that is not a difference in kind there is no difference anywhere...

                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post

                          Stop avoiding the question Tass. Are all our behaviors determined by antecedent conditions or not.
                          The question that YOU have to answer is whether Chimpanzees and all 9 species of humans that have existed on this planet, including Neanderthals and Denisovans with whom we interbred, had libertarian free-will and when did it develop.

                          If we share 99% of DNA with chimps why don't we find privative art or writing in their groups?
                          Well, we DO share 99% DNA with Chimpanzees (as per my previous link) – although we are more intelligent than they, hence our development of art and more advanced tools.

                          Of course it is a difference in kind. One species lives in trees one flies to the moon. If that is not a difference in kind there is no difference anywhere.
                          It’s a “difference” in evolved technical skills between Chimpanzees, Archaic humans and Homo-sapiens humans - NOT a difference in kind.


                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                            The question that YOU have to answer is whether Chimpanzees and all 9 species of humans that have existed on this planet, including Neanderthals and Denisovans with whom we interbred, had libertarian free-will and when did it develop.
                            You don't get to answer with a question Tass, please stop avoiding: Are all our behaviors determined by antecedent conditions or not.


                            Well, we DO share 99% DNA with Chimpanzees (as per my previous link) – although we are more intelligent than they, hence our development of art and more advanced tools.
                            So that one percent caused a very large and significant difference! So did that one percent allow us to have the freedom of will?


                            It’s a
                            “difference” in evolved technical skills between Chimpanzees, Archaic humans and Homo-sapiens humans - NOT a difference in kind.
                            No, Chimps aren't much different than a dog in that they operate on instinct. Or any other creature. Humans can and do act against instinct, can conceptually factor in long and short term consequences. Can will to override instinctual desires for future gain. Or not. That ability is a difference in kind.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              No, Chimps aren't much different than a dog in that they operate on instinct. Or any other creature. Humans can and do act against instinct, can conceptually factor in long and short term consequences. Can will to override instinctual desires for future gain. Or not. That ability is a difference in kind.
                              I'm not so sure it's a difference in kind. The ability to go against instinct is due to being able to evaluate the potential consequences of our actions. Humans are much better at that than other animals (in general), but I don't think that ability is completely lacking in other animals, especially the ones with larger brains.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                                I'm not so sure it's a difference in kind. The ability to go against instinct is due to being able to evaluate the potential consequences of our actions. Humans are much better at that than other animals (in general), but I don't think that ability is completely lacking in other animals, especially the ones with larger brains.
                                I doubt if they think conceptually. I can train a dog to get a treat if he rolls over. Is he really evaluating the potential consequences or benefits of rolling over? Or is it just a trained reflex?

                                Conceptual thinking is the practice of connecting abstract, disparate ideas to deepen understanding, create new ideas and reflect on past decisions.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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