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Atheism, Slavery, And The Moral High Ground...

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    No magic? How did biological meat come to form moral concepts like the golden rule? Especially since the process is deaf, dumb and blind to moral concepts.
    For social species such as us morality evolves via ‘natural selection’. Populations that cooperated had a survival advantage, e.g., wolves that hunt together are more likely to eat. Chimps groom each other to maintain social cohesion and etc. The human animal, being more intelligent has expanded these basic social instincts into more complex moral systems such as the Golden Rule to enable greater social harmony.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Christians did not start it in the West
      The origin of modern slavery was Pope Nicholas's 1454 decree granting the King of Portugal the right "to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens... and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery". That right was formally reaffirmed by 3 subsequent Popes in 1456, 1481 and 1514.

      At the point that 1454 Papal decree was made, there was little to no slavery in Europe. That was the origin of the modern slave trade, and during the colonial era these Papal decrees were repeatedly cited as formal authorization for Christians to own and trade slaves.

      So, yes, Christians did start slavery in the modern era. And they were really clear that they were doing it as Christians. They were seeking out the infidel and enslaving them. It was not simply that they happened to do slavery and also happened to be Christians, they saw a clear link between the two. These were conquests being done officially in the name of extending Christendom and bringing the heathens under the yoke of Christianity. Reducing the heathens to slavery was explicitly allowed and endorsed by multiple Popes, whilst enslaving fellow Christians was explicitly forbidden.

      In sum, modern slavery, in Africa & the Americas, was very much started by Christians - literally by Papal decrees.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        No magic? How did biological meat come to form moral concepts like the golden rule? Especially since the process is deaf, dumb and blind to moral concepts.
        I think you've scraped past the bottom of the barrel here seer.

        Smarter beings can find ways of surviving situations where less intelligent ones wouldn't survive. So evolution can favor intelligence.

        Intelligent beings can use that intelligence to ponder abstract concepts.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          I think you've scraped past the bottom of the barrel here seer.

          Smarter beings can find ways of surviving situations where less intelligent ones wouldn't survive. So evolution can favor intelligence.

          Intelligent beings can use that intelligence to ponder abstract concepts.
          Really, every other species survives just fine without any reference to moral concepts. Monkeys don't sit around musing about the usefulness of the golden rule. So again, how does biological meat magically come up with conceptual truths?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

            For social species such as us morality evolves via ‘natural selection’. Populations that cooperated had a survival advantage, e.g., wolves that hunt together are more likely to eat. Chimps groom each other to maintain social cohesion and etc. The human animal, being more intelligent has expanded these basic social instincts into more complex moral systems such as the Golden Rule to enable greater social harmony.
            Between humans and apes there is not only a difference in quality there is a difference in kind. Like I said to Star, monkeys don't sit around discussing conceptual moral ideals. They are dead to such concepts. As are all other species, but we magically do.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              Maybe stop pretending I ran Russia? I could pretend you ran Nazi Germany if you want to go that insane route.
              My apologies. I wasn't aware that the concept of using "you" in a general manner like that was something that would be well beyond your capability to grasp.

              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              The USSR's twisted form of communism was regarded at the time as serious heresy by left wing groups who kicked the communists out of their membership, and prominent democratic socialist writer George Orwell wrote the most famous works attacking them.
              Aside from the fact that Orwell also frequently eviscerated his fellow socialists, this is nothing but the old whine that communism works just fine, but just not anywhere it has been tried.

              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              If you want to be taken seriously, at all, write posts comparing modern left wing views to Scandinavian countries rather than communist ones.
              I've always dreamed of achieving the ability to get you to take me seriously. It has been a lifelong ambition so I'll hang on your every word.

              First, the Scandinavian countries are an admixture of capitalism and socialism. Second, the hard left does not have complete control there. That is why we have to turn to places where "you" have seized total power -- full on "people's Paradises." and that is why we need to look at places like the old Soviet Union and their gulags, the Chicoms and their slave labor camps for the Uighurs, Cuba, and North Korea.




              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Really, every other species survives just fine without any reference to moral concepts. Monkeys don't sit around musing about the usefulness of the golden rule. So again, how does biological meat magically come up with conceptual truths?
                Humans are smarter than monkeys.

                Well most of us. Reading this board sometimes I do wonder.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  Nonsense. You are referring to totalitarianism which is not acceptable to anyone in the West that I’m aware of. And “my ilk” tend to prefer their socialism under the moderate, secular non-forced labor model as found in Australia, NZ and the Scandinavian countries etc.– ALL of which rank higher on the UN Human Development Index and the Happiness Index than the largely Christian USA, which has the highest incarceration rates and greatest social inequity of virtually every other Western country.
                  Picking nations where you and your ilk haven't managed to gain full power and turn into your "People's Paradises" hardly count as examples. We need to look at the places where the far left rules. And what do we find there? Gulags and slave labor camps.

                  You love to focus on how bad things were hundreds and thousands of years ago, but then insist on totally ignoring what y'all are doing right now. Today.

                  Nobody can change the past. What is done is done. But we can change what is happening now. And now we have the far left enslaving people wherever they gain complete and total power.

                  The hard left needs to join us in the 21st cent and support emancipation. To start demanding that the slaves be freed.








                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    First, the Scandinavian countries are an admixture of capitalism and socialism.
                    Indeed. As I have repeatedly said, it appears an admixture of socialism and capitalism is optimal, and I hence view myself as a centrist on the international scale, sitting half way between the extremes.

                    Somehow you can't seem to understand that and insist on identifying my politics with the USSR, which is hilarious. There's literally no connection.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      Humans are smarter than monkeys.

                      Well most of us. Reading this board sometimes I do wonder.
                      Again that does not explain how biological meat can form conceptual truths in the first place. It certainly is not necessary for survival.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Indeed. As I have repeatedly said, it appears an admixture of socialism and capitalism is optimal, and I hence view myself as a centrist on the international scale, sitting half way between the extremes.

                        Somehow you can't seem to understand that and insist on identifying my politics with the USSR, which is hilarious. There's literally no connection.
                        Anyone who seriously and repeatedly argues that the communist tyrant Joseph Stalin was "really" a right-winger is likely even to the left of the communists.


                        And again, I'm talking about what happens when the far left seizes complete and total control. Like in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba... For very good reason you want to shift the spotlight off of that.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Anyone who seriously and repeatedly argues that the communist tyrant Joseph Stalin was "really" a right-winger is likely even to the left of the communists.


                          And again, I'm talking about what happens when the far left seizes complete and total control. Like in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba... For very good reason you want to shift the spotlight off of that.
                          Maybe if the socialists don't want to be associated with communism/socialism, they should come up with a new term. Freestuffism, maybe.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                            Maybe if the socialists don't want to be associated with communism/socialism, they should come up with a new term. Freestuffism, maybe.



                            ba638863-429c-4853-9a14-6372da0f5551.jpg
                            Someone once said that a Socialist is just a patient Communist or a Communist without a gun in their hand.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • 56bcf3ff740f0.image.jpg

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                                Between humans and apes there is not only a difference in quality there is a difference in kind. Like I said to Star, monkeys don't sit around discussing conceptual moral ideals. They are dead to such concepts. As are all other species, but we magically do.
                                Homo sapiens are of the “same kind” as the other great apes - i.e. Chimpanzees, Bonobos and Orangutans etc. - with a similar social structure and similar instincts of cooperation and reciprocity. The difference is that the higher intelligence of humans has enabled us to codify our evolved instincts into a formal moral system - something which is beyond the capacity of our simian cousins.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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