Atheism, Slavery, And The Moral High Ground...

[Machinist]

Yes, they vary, but even in prehistoric humans and Neanderthals there is evidence of caring for the elderly and disabled.

Is this a game changer? It sounds like a game changer.

[Machinist]

ShunyDragon,

These two statements seem to be incompatible:

Yes, they vary, but even in prehistoric humans and Neanderthals there is evidence of caring for the elderly and disabled.

The survival of the human species is dependent on the existence of morals and ethics for the necessary social cooperation and structure, and a social tribal and community structure

If morality is based on the survival of the human species, why would the need to care for the elderly even be a thing?

[seer]

Is this a game changer? It sounds like a game changer.

Why?

[Machinist]

It's not.

[seer]

ShunyDragon,

These two statements seem to be incompatible:

Yes, they vary, but even in prehistoric humans and Neanderthals there is evidence of caring for the elderly and disabled.

The survival of the human species is dependent on the existence of morals and ethics for the necessary social cooperation and structure, and a social tribal and community structure

If morality is based on the survival of the human species, why would the need to care for the elderly even be a thing?

And remember some cultures killed babies born with physical defects.

[rogue06]

This is an assertion that does not hold. In all cultures of the world there are morals and ethics, and some like Buddhism are far superior to the history of Christianity concerning the moral issues of slavery and how to treat women.

Morals and ethics have been demonstrated to be universal in the history of humanity. Yes, they vary, but even in prehistoric humans and Neanderthals there is evidence of caring for the elderly and disabled.

The survival of the human species is dependent on the existence of morals and ethics for the necessary social cooperation and structure, and a social tribal and community structure

Hasn't the concept of karma been used to justify slavery by Buddhists? Don't they have an entire set of descriptors for various slaves including Amaya-dasa "slave by birth", and Kila-dasa "bought slave"?

Doesn't Buddhism also allow debt slavery, and forbid debtors from becoming monks?

Didn't the Buddhists in Burma codify over a dozen forms of slavery?

Didn't the Buddhist nation of Bhutan permit slavery up through the late 1950s?

slavery1.jpg
Here are two Tibetans slaves that were kept
in Buddhist Tibet. It appears that before China
invaded the country that the Dali Lama owned slaves

As for wimmenfolk, we have this saying from the Amitābha (Celestial Buddha):

"So profound is Amida’s great compassion
That, manifesting inconceivable Buddha-wisdom,
The Buddha established the Vow of transformation [of women] into men,
Thereby vowing to enable women to attain Buddhahood"

Buddha is so compassionate that he'll turn women into men. That reminds me of how the Mormons once taught that God will lighten the skin of blacks and turn them white

[shunyadragon]

So? You can not even make the case that slavery in wrong in the first place.

Did not respond to my post. You cannot make an argument against slavery based on the Bible nor the history of Christianity.

I can make a case based on the morals arguments of historical figures like Abraham Lincoln and others.

As far as the from the theological perspective I can refer to the the Bahai Faith that has forbidden all forms of slavery since the mid 1800's

[shunyadragon]

Hasn't the concept of karma been used to justify slavery by Buddhists? Don't they have an entire set of descriptors for various slaves including Amaya-dasa "slave by birth", and Kila-dasa "bought slave"?

Doesn't Buddhism also allow debt slavery, and forbid debtors from becoming monks?

Didn't the Buddhists in Burma codify over a dozen forms of slavery?

Didn't the Buddhist nation of Bhutan permit slavery up through the late 1950s?

slavery1.jpg
Here are two Tibetans slaves that were kept
in Buddhist Tibet. It appears that before China
invaded the country that the Dali Lama owned slaves

As for wimmenfolk, we have this saying from the Amitābha (Celestial Buddha):

"So profound is Amida’s great compassion
That, manifesting inconceivable Buddha-wisdom,
The Buddha established the Vow of transformation [of women] into men,
Thereby vowing to enable women to attain Buddhahood"

Buddha is so compassionate that he'll turn women into men. That reminds me of how the Mormons once taught that God will lighten the skin of blacks and turn them white

Gross misrepresentation of Buddhism. Transformation in Buddhist is two way street as in the God/Goddess Guanyin.

[shunyadragon]

Hasn't the concept of karma been used to justify slavery by Buddhists? Don't they have an entire set of descriptors for various slaves including Amaya-dasa "slave by birth", and Kila-dasa "bought slave"?

This does not assert that slavery is moral.

Doesn't Buddhism also allow debt slavery, and forbid debtors from becoming monks?

Debt slaver {indentured servitude) is common in all ancient cultures and not forbidden until the Baha'i Revelation. The endentured may become monks after debt is paid.

Didn't the Buddhists in Burma codify over a dozen forms of slavery?

Didn't the Buddhist nation of Bhutan permit slavery up through the late 1950s?

slavery1.jpg
Here are two Tibetans slaves that were kept
in Buddhist Tibet. It appears that before China
invaded the country that the Dali Lama owned slaves

As for wimmen (sp?) folk, we have this saying from the Amitābha (Celestial Buddha):

"So profound is Amida’s great compassion
That, manifesting inconceivable Buddha-wisdom,
The Buddha established the Vow of transformation [of women] into men,
Thereby vowing to enable women to attain Buddhahood"

Buddha is so compassionate that he'll turn women into men. That reminds me of how the Mormons once taught that God will lighten the skin of blacks and turn them white

[/QUOTE]

[rogue06]

Gross misrepresentation of Buddhism.

Are the things I listed true or not?

Did Buddhist-controlled nations just still permit slavery into the mid 20th cent. or not?

Did the so-called Celestial Buddha not say that women will be blessed and transformed into men?

[rogue06]

This does not assert that slavery is moral.

Debt slaver {indentured servitude) is common in all ancient cultures and not forbidden until the Baha'i Revelation. The endentured may become monks after debt is paid.

It wasn't just debt slavery. You don't have debt-slaves since birth (Amaya-dasa "slave by birth"). That's chattel slavery.

And here you are now basically admitting that the Buddhists are no different from "other ancient cultures." Disappearing faster than a morning mist in the rays of a hot summer sun is your declaration of how "Buddhism [is] far superior to the history of Christianity concerning the moral issues of slavery and how to treat women."

And the Baha'i Revelation was IIRC after Europe (Christians) outlawed debt slavery.

[seer]

Did not respond to my post. You cannot make an argument against slavery based on the Bible nor the history of Christianity.

I can make a case based on the morals arguments of historical figures like Abraham Lincoln and others.

As far as the from the theological perspective I can refer to the the Bahai Faith that has forbidden all forms of slavery since the mid 1800's

The abolition movement was well under way in the West before Baháʼu'lláh jumped on the bandwagon. And it was Christians who made the argument against slavery based on the teaching of the New Testament.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

So I will ask again, why is slavery a moral wrong?

That depends on the moral codes and customs of the society.

From Stanford: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

More particularly, the term “morality” can be used either

1. descriptively to refer to certain codes of conduct put forward by a society or a group (such as a religion), or accepted by an individual for her own behavior, or
2. normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational people.

However, there is also the consideration of ethics which is a philosophical discipline [that covers a vast array of topics] which reflects upon various codes of conduct, customs and habits, the ways humans live together as societies, and considers the principles behind what are deemed to be appropriate [good or bad] behaviours of individuals, groups, or indeed humankind in general.


As an example of that first definition given by Stanford

A is living in a society of blue-eyed people where brown eyed people are deemed to be abnormal, degenerate, and lacking the qualities [deemed superior by that society] of blue-eyed people. Anyone with brown eyes is routinely incarcerated and never seen again.

A meets B who is brown-eyed. A is, under the moral codes of a society that considers these people dangerous and inferior, bound to report B.

However, is it ethical for A to report B to the authorities?

[seer]

That depends on the moral codes and customs of the society.

From Stanford: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

More particularly, the term “morality” can be used either

1. descriptively to refer to certain codes of conduct put forward by a society or a group (such as a religion), or accepted by an individual for her own behavior, or
2. normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational people.

However, there is also the consideration of ethics which is a philosophical discipline [that covers a vast array of topics] which reflects upon various codes of conduct, customs and habits, the ways humans live together as societies, and considers the principles behind what are deemed to be appropriate [good or bad] behaviours of individuals, groups, or indeed humankind in general.


As an example of that first definition given by Stanford

A is living in a society of blue-eyed people where brown eyed people are deemed to be abnormal, degenerate, and lacking the qualities [deemed superior by that society] of blue-eyed people. Anyone with brown eyes is routinely incarcerated and never seen again.

A meets B who is brown-eyed. A is, under the moral codes of a society that considers these people dangerous and inferior, bound to report B.

However, is it ethical for A to report B to the authorities?

Then it is all relative. And any moral disgust you may feel over the question of slavery is merely emotional and cultural.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Then it is all relative.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?