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Atheism, Slavery, And The Moral High Ground...

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Originally posted by Starlight
    I tend to take the view that fairness and caring are universal moral ideas among humans, because that's why my reading of the relevant literature seems to indicate is the case.
    And greed and selfishness are also universal to the human condition. So?
    Your reply is utterly irrelevant because those greed and selfishness are not widely viewed as being moral even by those who practice them.

    I'm not saying morality is defined by what people do. Of course it isn't. People do immoral things regularly. Even someone with a perfect moral code would fall short of their own standard on occasion. My point was that there's universal agreement as to some ideas about what is 'moral' and what is not. Your reply that people often do bad things, has no value whatsoever to the conversation and does not address my point in the slighest.

    And you still don't get it Star, even if the golden rule is universal - so what? How does a toothless ideal have any effect on behavior?
    You're MASSIVELY shifting the goal posts here. You've gone from whining about humans not agreeing on the definition of morality and thus needing God to provide that definition for them, to completely changing the topic to enforcement. If you admit that your whining about the definition of morality was unjustified and admit the failure of your arguments on that topic, then I'll discuss this new topic of enforcement with you in a new thread. BTW, it's my view that God does actually bring something to the table on the topic of enforcement, and that that subject is the only one with regard to morality that you actually have a leg to stand on. It's not a good leg, but at least you can actually make a valid argument on that topic, which you can't as to the definition of morality: Obviously God could choose to act as an enforcement mechanism for morality, though in Christianity he doesn't.

    Euthyphro dilemma, has been dealt with here and in philosophy.
    Dealt with? In the sense of:

    Christians: Um, if I say "God's nature", that like totally disproves Euthrypo's dilemma right? Okay, cool. "God's nature". Cool. We've definitively disproven the consensus of modern philosophers on the topic with our stunning argumentation. K, bye.

    Me: ...that was supposed to be an argument, and a convincing one?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

      Depends on how you define "absolute".
      Well this plays into my larger point. You believe certain things should be absolutely wrong, Star is trying his best to come up with universal moral truths. And most people do believe these things, to degrees. But they are not consistent with naturalism or materialism. But they are consistent with theism - we are all created in the image of God and these insights and intuitions reflect that image. IMHO...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        Commended for lying or saving the spies? The Lord detests lying lips... And she isn't actually commended for lying...

        By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. (Heb 11:31)

        And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way. (James 2:25)
        Yeah, I'm still goin' with hierarchical ethics.
        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Nationalist.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Well this plays into my larger point. You believe certain things should be absolutely wrong, Star is trying his best to come up with universal moral truths. And most people do believe these things, to degrees. But they are not consistent with naturalism or materialism. But they are consistent with theism - we are all created in the image of God and these insights and intuitions reflect that image. IMHO...
          Me having that opinion that something is always wrong is perfectly consistent with naturalism and materialism.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post

            Well this plays into my larger point. You believe certain things should be absolutely wrong, Star is trying his best to come up with universal moral truths. And most people do believe these things, to degrees. But they are not consistent with naturalism or materialism. But they are consistent with theism - we are all created in the image of God and these insights and intuitions reflect that image. IMHO...
            Moral values and their universal application, are perfectly consistent with "naturalism". Morals and ethics are a product of the evolution of the necessary social behavior of humanity to survive as cooperative intelligent social animals. The notion that goodness is developed from a set of written religious moral rules is absurdly false.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              Your reply is utterly irrelevant because those greed and selfishness are not widely viewed as being moral even by those who practice them.

              I'm not saying morality is defined by what people do. Of course it isn't. People do immoral things regularly. Even someone with a perfect moral code would fall short of their own standard on occasion. My point was that there's universal agreement as to some ideas about what is 'moral' and what is not. Your reply that people often do bad things, has no value whatsoever to the conversation and does not address my point in the slighest.
              No, behavior is related to what we consider moral or not. And you are sill not getting the point, general agreement does not prove moral realism:

              Moral Realism (or Moral Objectivism) is the meta-ethical view (see the section on Ethics) that there exist such things as moral facts and moral values, and that these are objective and independent of our perception of them or our beliefs, feelings or other attitudes towards them.

              https://www.philosophybasics.com/bra...l_realism.html
              No argument you have made in all these discussions couldn't be made by the moral relativist. Because in moral realism moral facts exist independent of our beliefs and perceptions. Everything you pointed to depends on our perceptions and beliefs of what is moral or not.


              You're MASSIVELY shifting the goal posts here. You've gone from whining about humans not agreeing on the definition of morality and thus needing God to provide that definition for them, to completely changing the topic to enforcement. If you admit that your whining about the definition of morality was unjustified and admit the failure of your arguments on that topic, then I'll discuss this new topic of enforcement with you in a new thread. BTW, it's my view that God does actually bring something to the table on the topic of enforcement, and that that subject is the only one with regard to morality that you actually have a leg to stand on. It's not a good leg, but at least you can actually make a valid argument on that topic, which you can't as to the definition of morality: Obviously God could choose to act as an enforcement mechanism for morality, though in Christianity he doesn't.
              I have not moved anything. I have made this point over and over again - and you just hand wave! Of what use are these objective moral facts? Do the bind, do they compel? Are there merits or demerits? Answer the question Star - what good are they?

              that was supposed to be an argument, and a convincing one?
              Then stop being slippery - which horn of the dilemma are Christian's impaled on. Be specific...Or admit you have no idea what you are talking about.

              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                Me having that opinion that something is always wrong is perfectly consistent with naturalism and materialism.
                Yes believing in moral absolutes when they can't exist in naturalism and materialism is consistent. OK...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post

                  Yes believing in moral absolutes when they can't exist in naturalism and materialism is consistent. OK...
                  Yes, the existence of an opinion is perfectly consistent with naturalism and materialism.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post

                    Yes believing in moral absolutes when they can't exist in naturalism and materialism is consistent. OK...
                    Morality cannot exist at all without the existence of a social species such as us to decide upon rules of behavior – which is all morality is, i.e., rules of behavior. And they demonstrably vary from culture to culture over time.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                      Morality cannot exist at all without the existence of a social species such as us to decide upon rules of behavior – which is all morality is, i.e., rules of behavior. And they demonstrably vary from culture to culture over time.
                      What is defined as social acceptable is never the universal (obviously) ,but perhaps the process by which man goes about defining those rules is itself the universal.

                      Could that be the unifying thread between these differing views, maybe a bridge of sorts?

                      Also, if someone could tell me if the following is true : moral realism(in effect) = God.


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                        Also, if someone could tell me if the following is true : moral realism(in effect) = God.
                        No, most moral realists are not theists. They just believe that moral facts exist, or are true. Like 2+2=4 - that would be true no matter what anyone thought or believed. Torturing little children for fun would be a moral wrong even if everyone thought it was morally acceptable. The problem is that they try and divorce moral ideals from the subjective mind (that they have some sort of independent reality). But it is the mind that formulates moral truths.

                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Say again how the Golden Rule is not an Objective Universal and Absolute Moral Truth.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                            Say again how the Golden Rule is not an Objective Universal and Absolute Moral Truth.
                            Well if it is a command of God then it is universal and binding. If not then no...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • How is that not proof that God exists?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                                No, most moral realists are not theists. They just believe that moral facts exist, or are true. Like 2+2=4 - that would be true no matter what anyone thought or believed.
                                The rules of morality are not absolute or unchanging. They are merely how humans have behaved under certain circumstances at different times in history. They have evolved and varied from culture to culture over time e.g., slavery, or the place of women or LGBT people in the community.

                                . The problem is that they try and divorce moral ideals from the subjective mind (that they have some sort of independent reality). But it is the mind that formulates moral truths.
                                Morality has no independent, unchangeable absolute reality for theists or non-theists alike. Both have a long history of supporting slavery, racial and sexual discrimination and the subjugation of women as the property of men.


                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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