Originally posted by rogue06
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Historical Jesus and later theological constructs
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"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Machinist View PostThe theory is that no one (the disciples and apostles) would have risked their lives spreading news that they witnessed the resurrected Jesus given the cultural mores of the collectivist society at that time.
In other words, the people at the time in Jerusalem didn't view the witness of the disciples and apostles as particularly compelling. If they weren't convinced, why should we 2000 years later believe someone who says "oh, their witness was totally convincing given the social norms of the time"? The people who lived in those social norms weren't convinced.
It was the people furthest away from the actual events who became Christians in large numbers in the first few centuries - people across the Roman Empire who were distant from from Jerusalem and the disciples. The people who were nearest the apostles and disciples - Jews in Jerusalem - didn't generally find their testimony compelling. Those who were in the best position to judge their credibility, didn't find them credible. Only the gullible in distant lands believed."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Also worth noting that in light of complete-lack-of-mention in Josephus' writings, it's pretty clear that the large-scale resurrection claimed in Matthew 27:52-54, absolutely didn't happen. Nor can there even have been serious claims of it happening circulating in the populace, or else he would have discussed an alleged public event of this magnitude at length:
Matthew 27: 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Once you accept that the gospel writer of Matthew feels free to wholesale fabricate widespread resurrections, why trust anything at all he says? Even Trump didn't claim that the resurrected dead were seen walking and rigging the ballot boxes against him - some lies are too absurd even for him, yet the writer of Matthew was at that level of insane lie."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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People waking from the grave and walking around in the city always struck me as questionable. I mean it's a great story and I love the story, but when I start thinking about what really happened and thinking logically about it, there are some things in the Bible that I question.
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The miracles of Jesus, I don't really question though. I love the story of Jesus, the entire story. And I don't really question the part about the dead rising from their graves, it's just that it's weird to me that no one wrote about it. I mean yeah people didn't commonly write things down back then and it was mostly oral tradition, but it would seem that this would have seized the entire population with wonder.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostChristianity was created by Paul as a separate cult that was premised on his own soteriological beliefs. He achieved this by merging existing Judaic and Hellenistic concepts into a powerful and all embracing system, this being, by its nature, both intelligible and acceptable to contemporary Graeco-Roman society.
Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostPaul's central message was Jesus Christ crucified. There is no sugar coating which would make that "acceptable to contemporary Graeco-Roman society.""It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Moved to a more appropriate thread.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou do realize that you're relying on material written centuries after the time in question by the descendants of one view of Judaism current at the time of Christ who are just spitballing, yes?
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThat you have to cherry-pick and even then qualify your examples speaks volumes.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI'd be interested to know just what basis you have for asserting that Jesus of Nazareth and his disciples practiced a Palestinian Judaism not propounded by Paul, then. Sources other than the canonical gospels are much later and farther from Palestinian Judaism (as far as we can discern it) than they are.Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostSuch a construct is a very long way from Paul's teachings, too. Paul wrote rather more than 1 Corinthians 2.6-8. Taking a distorted view of Paul's teachings and using that to filter out "Pauline" influences on the gospels isn't going to result in a very accurate picture of the teachings of Jesus.
You are reading Jesus’ teachings” through the filter of Pauline Christianity. Not within the context of known Palestinian Judaism. As you ignored my question in my previous reply, let me ask it again.
Who do you think were the "archontes" in I Corinthians 2.8? And why is Paul referring to a Galilean Jew as the "Lord of glory"?
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI'm well aware of that. Crucifixion was the method used for executing slaves.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostInteresting that you felt the need to break my argument up in order to attack it. No self-respecting Greco-Roman was going to follow someone executed as a slave. He was dead! Everybody knows that dead people don't come back to life. This was, after all, a culture in which a popular epitaph was "Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo".
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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