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The Historical Jesus and later theological constructs

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  • The Historical Jesus and later theological constructs

    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Christ is the reason Christian faith exists HA. On the night of His last Passover feast, he took it and its customary food and created what we practice as Communion. And during His ministry he used Baptism as a foundational sign of repentance, though it was His disciples that Baptized. He was of course Baptized himself by His cousin John. These two things are our only necessary deeds, our only necessary practices, and He instituted them. His teachings as they are recorded in the Gospels and the writings of His disciples form the basis for what every Christian has believed from the time of His ministry on Earth till now.
    Your naive and touching belief is noted but what you have written is a confection premised on much later theological concepts and constructs.


    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    You are at least partially correct in that Jesus was Jewish by birth
    I am not “partially correct in that Jesus was Jewish by birth”. I am correct.


    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    and the longed for Messiah
    According to the gospels he was proclaimed as the Jewish Messiah by his followers.. However, the Jewish Messiah is not a divinity. The belief in anthropomorphic deities is a Hellenistic idea, not a Jewish one. The Jewish deity is ineffable.


    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    and he did in fact take on that role. Not only did He take it on, he fulfilled it
    No he did not. He neither met nor fulfilled the criteria for the Jewish Messiah.


    Judaism and Christian faith are forever related in that way.[/quote] The two religions are diametrically opposed. As one Jewish theologian noted, ”Judaism is Judaism because it rejects Christianity, and Christianity is Christianity because it rejects Judaism

    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    What you are doing here as you did in the previous comment is to take a distinctive of Christian faith and then use it to say something derogatory about Christian faith and practice. I'm not sure what is motivating you to do that, whether it is ignorance or hostility, but the implications you are drawing from these basic and well understand facts about who Jesus was are simply wrong.
    I am not being derogatory I am attempting to explain and understand how Christian beliefs actually came into existence and attained prominence and acceptance.

    Irrespective of what people later believed, the historical figure Jesus of Nazareth had no impact on the world. He lived and died a nonentity.


    Paul created his new religion [Christianity] premised on a man whom had he never met but whom he considered to be a soteriological figure; not completely a divinity but more than a mere human being. Later theologians, many of whom had been educated in the Hellenistic world including the study of philosophy, took his still partially formed theology and imposed their own interpretations and embellishments upon it.

    The much later [fourth century] belief in a hypostatic union within a Triune deity [an entity that is also homoousion in that it shares the same essence] is taken from non- Christian [so-called “pagan”] Greek philosophy.

    Without Hellenism the religion of Christianity could not have existed.




    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

  • #2
    "I am not being derogatory I am attempting to explain and understand how Christian beliefs actually came into existence and attained prominence and acceptance." -Hypatia

    Just wanting to get your opinion on this: https://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.php

    It sounds quite solid.

    Excuse the rainbow effect there.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Machinist View Post
      "I am not being derogatory I am attempting to explain and understand how Christian beliefs actually came into existence and attained prominence and acceptance." -Hypatia

      Just wanting to get your opinion on this: https://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.php

      It sounds quite solid.

      Excuse the rainbow effect there.
      I am very sorry but your link will not open for me.

      However, I understand the site is run by a Christian apologist.

      ​​​​​​​If you can cut and paste what is being contended I will offer my opinion.
      "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

      Comment


      • #4
        It's quite lengthy. If you google "The Impossible Faith - JP Holding" it will come up. Mr. Holding is part of this forum actually in another section. I think his argument is quite worthy of consideration.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Machinist View Post
          It's quite lengthy. If you google "The Impossible Faith - JP Holding" it will come up. Mr. Holding is part of this forum actually in another section. I think his argument is quite worthy of consideration.
          It appears to be a book.

          From the Barnes & Noble site's blurb.

          "A Thesis So Explosive, An Atheist Paid $5,000 for An Answer

          The Impossible Faith offers the proposition that Christianity could not have succeeded unless it had indisputable proof of the resurrection of Jesus. Had there not been such evidence, Christianity would have been an "impossible faith".

          Using his seventeen years of experience in apologetics ministry, the author will demonstrate the impossibility of Christianity in the eyes of the people of the first century and present an apologetic for Jesus' resurrection. Christians will be encouraged and emboldened by the message of The Impossible Faith, realizing "how firm a foundation" they have in Christ Jesus. Non-Christians will be challenged to consider the truth of Christianity in a new light. The arguments in this book are so powerful that one atheist paid over $5,000 for a response. It is impossible to estimate the evangelistic impact that is possible because of The Impossible Faith.

          James Patrick Holding is President of Tekton Apologetics Ministries , one of the leading apologetics ministries on the Internet. Tekton Apologetics Ministries was recommended by apologist and prominent author Lee Strobel on Hank Hanegraaff's The Bible Answerman in December, 2001. Holding has written over 1700 articles for his ministry, as well as articles for the Christian Research Journal and for the publications of Creation Ministries International . He has also published The Mormon Defenders: How Latter-Day Saint Apologists Misinterpret the Bible. He lives in Central Florida with his beloved wife and a very small, very spoiled poodle"


          The same blurb appears on Amazon.com and the facility whereby you can read the opening pages of the work, is not available. The reviews on Amazon all appear to be from believers.

          What is he contending? There is/was no "indisputable proof of the resurrection".

          Edited to add: I have just found this. http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_holding.htm However, the style is quite difficult to follow. Clear quotes are not always easy to recognise.
          Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 05-10-2021, 07:31 AM.
          "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

          Comment


          • #6
            The theory is that no one (the disciples and apostles) would have risked their lives spreading news that they witnessed the resurrected Jesus given the cultural mores of the collectivist society at that time.

            Comment


            • #7
              It may not "prove" anything, but it does make Christianity quite unique.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post


                Irrespective of what people later believed, the historical figure Jesus of Nazareth had no impact on the world. He lived and died a nonentity.

                [FONT=Calibri]Paul created his new religion [Christianity] premised on a man whom had he never met but whom he considered to be a soteriological figure; not completely a divinity but more than a mere human being. Later theologians, many of whom had been educated in the Hellenistic world including the study of philosophy, took his still partially formed theology and imposed their own interpretations and embellishments upon it.
                Baseless speculation unsupported by even one corroborating fact. Effectively, wishful thinking on your part used to rationalize your rejection.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                  The theory is that no one (the disciples and apostles) would have risked their lives spreading news that they witnessed the resurrected Jesus given the cultural mores of the collectivist society at that time.
                  It's more about the fact that the central claims of Christianity would have been immediately rejected as culturally offensive unless there was vindicating proof that the claims were true. If it was, as skeptics assert, nothing more than the fantasies of illiterate fisherman with no concrete evidence behind it, then Christianity would disappeared as quickly as it began.

                  Here's a link to the full essay. The book, of course, contains additional details:

                  https://tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.php
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Baseless speculation unsupported by even one corroborating fact. Effectively, wishful thinking on your part used to rationalize your rejection.
                    Care to explain your reasoning?
                    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      Care to explain your reasoning?
                      Sure. You provided nothing in your OP but baseless speculation for a position that you effectively need to be true.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        It's more about the fact that the central claims of Christianity would have been immediately rejected as culturally offensive unless there was vindicating proof that the claims were true. If it was, as skeptics assert, nothing more than the fantasies of illiterate fisherman with no concrete evidence behind it, then Christianity would disappeared as quickly as it began.

                        Here's a link to the full essay. The book, of course, contains additional details:

                        https://tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.php
                        Yup. Unless there was a great deal of compelling evidence to the contrary, Jesus' message would have been summarily rejected by all of the Jews at the time because of the shameful manner of his death. It would have become utterly extinct by the end of the 1st cent.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Sure. You provided nothing in your OP but baseless speculation for a position that you effectively need to be true.
                          I responded to the comments by oxmixmudd whose beliefs [sincere but naive] are a confection. Jesus was a Jew and he lived and died a nonentity. What you and Oxmixmudd believe in is a much later theological construct.

                          Contrary to your assumptions and theological beliefs the first century Galilean Jew we know as Jesus of Nazareth never founded any "new" religion. Nor was Paul his most prominent proselytiser of that "new" faith. As a Jew Jesus of Nazareth, merely sought to play an accepted role within the Judaism of his day.

                          Christianity was created by Paul as a separate cult that was premised on his own soteriological beliefs. He achieved this by merging existing Judaic and Hellenistic concepts into a powerful and all embracing system, this being, by its nature, both intelligible and acceptable to contemporary Graeco-Roman society.
                          "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Yup. Unless there was a great deal of compelling evidence to the contrary, Jesus' message would have been summarily rejected by all of the Jews at the time because of the shameful manner of his death. It would have become utterly extinct by the end of the 1st cent.
                            You can thank the First Jewish War, which with the destruction of Jerusalem left the field open to Pauline beliefs, and later still the emperor Constantine, for all that.
                            "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              I responded to the comments by oxmixmudd whose beliefs [sincere but naive] are a confection. Jesus was a Jew and he lived and died a nonentity. What you and Oxmixmudd believe in is a much later theological construct.

                              Contrary to your assumptions and theological beliefs the first century Galilean Jew we know as Jesus of Nazareth never founded any "new" religion. Nor was Paul his most prominent proselytiser of that "new" faith. As a Jew Jesus of Nazareth, merely sought to play an accepted role within the Judaism of his day.

                              Christianity was created by Paul as a separate cult that was premised on his own soteriological beliefs. He achieved this by merging existing Judaic and Hellenistic concepts into a powerful and all embracing system, this being, by its nature, both intelligible and acceptable to contemporary Graeco-Roman society.


                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment

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