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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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Ancient Sources: History and Theology.

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  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Philo and Josephus both mention him.
    Actually I am aware of not just them but Tacitus, who mentions him briefly as well -- as were all of the scoffers who kept claiming that Pilate was nothing more than a fictitious construct fabricated by Christians. They simply declared that those references are interpolations (pious forgeries) inserted later by Christians into the text in exactly the same manner they reject both Josephus' and Tactus' mention of Jesus. Since they summarily rejected the references I excluded them as well.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    That later archaeological evidence confirmed his existence.
    For the scoffers the discovery of the "Pilate Stone" was the first "legitimate" piece of evidence of his existence. until then, they dismissed him as a fictional character.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    The fact remains, as you have stated, that we know very little about this historical figure.

    However, I still have no idea why anyone thinks that even if he was married why his wife would have been present in Jerusalem at this time.
    A wife going to be with her husband. Why that's so rare and unheard of that obviously we must therefore dismiss anything that mentions it

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    You, along with some other Christians here, have an unfortunate tendency to conflate a real Galilean Jewish peasant who was executed by the Roman Praefectus of Judaea with a much later theological construct. The two are not the same.
    And you keep making this assertion without ever providing evidence for it.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Again, I note that you appear to have forgotten the comments on Pilate from both Philo and Josephus. Or perhaps you did not know about them!
    See my first comment above, and I'll note that you excluded Tacitus. Or perhaps you did not know of him!

    What I don't understand is why so many scoffers dismissed Pilate as being a fictitious person in spite of three separate references. If you read Philo, he rails at Pilate for various acts that upset the Jews in Jerusalem. He says nothing about Jesus or the Christians, yet atheists felt some bizarre compulsion to deny that reference.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Firstly, and regrettably, so many ancient sources have not survived and secondly you need to realise that this province was not overly important as evidenced by the rank of those early Praefecti. They were men of the equestrian classes. Judaea was a comparative backwater. Yes it had geographical importance to Rome given its location on the Mediterranean littoral but the two really significant Roman provinces were Syria and Egypt.
    The bolded is a point that I've repeatedly made and yet for some reason you keep demanding contemporary writings documenting the existence of Jesus. If we have none for Pilate (the three citations date from many decades later), who was a Roman governor and would be mentioned in all sorts of documents, why would you expect to find any for Jesus, who would have been completely unknown outside of Galilee and Judea (as you say, a "backwater") during his lifetime (but boy did that change)?


    Moderated By: rogue06


    My apologies. I thought I posted this Thursday, but when I looked for it I couldn't find it. Apparently I never hit "Post Reply" so it has been sitting there in the "Restore or Delete" file since then

    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

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  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    But I never quoted Dr. Wood, so your self-serving assessment of him, even if by some miracle it proved to be accurate, is completely irrelevant.
    He is cited in your article that you presumably posted to give some form of credence to your views.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    You posted a link. I read it and responded to the validity of allegations made by one "Dr" Wood.

    Short answer: I do not consider the opinions of a "creationist archaeologist" to have any academic merit.
    But I never quoted Dr. Wood, so your self-serving assessment of him, even if by some miracle it proved to be accurate, is completely irrelevant.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    So?

    Apparently you have no response to what I actually quoted, so you decided to attack something else. (And frankly, I don't even buy into your assessment of Dr. Wood, but that's really beside the point.)
    You posted a link. I read it and responded to the validity of allegations made by one "Dr" Wood.

    Short answer: I do not consider the opinions of a "creationist archaeologist" to have any academic merit.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Your article did.
    So?

    Apparently you have no response to what I actually quoted, so you decided to attack something else. (And frankly, I don't even buy into your assessment of Dr. Wood, but that's really beside the point.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    So?
    Your article did.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Your link did.
    So?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    I never referenced Dr. Wood.
    Your link did.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    From the link you provided: https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2...on-at-jericho/

    The controversy centers on the dating of the destruction of City IV at Jericho. Everyone agrees that Canaanite Jericho was destroyed in a violent, fiery manner. Not everyone agrees on the date that this happened. The first excavators, Sellin and Watzinger, who dug from 1907 to 1909, concluded that Jericho had been destroyed in the Middle Bronze Age, by at least 1600 BC.2 In the 1930’s, British archaeologist, John Garstang excavated a residential area of Jericho and concluded that the fiery destruction of the city occurred in the Late Bronze Age, ca. 1400 BC, linking it with Joshua and the Israelites.3 From 1952-58, Dame Kathleen Kenyon excavated at Jericho and dated the destruction of City IV to the end of the Middle Bronze Age, ca 1550 BC4, meaning that there was no city of Jericho for Joshua to conquer at the time the Bible describes the conquest of Canaan. More recently, archaeologist Bryant Wood has suggested that Kenyon’s analysis of the date of this destruction is incorrect, as she based her conclusions largely on the absence of Cypriot bichrome pottery.5
    I never referenced Dr. Wood.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I honestly have no idea what you're going on about since I never referenced Dr. Wood.
    From the link you provided: https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2...on-at-jericho/

    The controversy centers on the dating of the destruction of City IV at Jericho. Everyone agrees that Canaanite Jericho was destroyed in a violent, fiery manner. Not everyone agrees on the date that this happened. The first excavators, Sellin and Watzinger, who dug from 1907 to 1909, concluded that Jericho had been destroyed in the Middle Bronze Age, by at least 1600 BC.2 In the 1930’s, British archaeologist, John Garstang excavated a residential area of Jericho and concluded that the fiery destruction of the city occurred in the Late Bronze Age, ca. 1400 BC, linking it with Joshua and the Israelites.3 From 1952-58, Dame Kathleen Kenyon excavated at Jericho and dated the destruction of City IV to the end of the Middle Bronze Age, ca 1550 BC4, meaning that there was no city of Jericho for Joshua to conquer at the time the Bible describes the conquest of Canaan. More recently, archaeologist Bryant Wood has suggested that Kenyon’s analysis of the date of this destruction is incorrect, as she based her conclusions largely on the absence of Cypriot bichrome pottery.5

    Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 05-14-2021, 08:59 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    I gave the link for his credentials. He is a "Creationist Archaeologist" whatever that is supposed to be. Perhaps it is akin to a flat earth astronomer!

    I honestly have no idea what you're going on about since I never referenced Dr. Wood.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    And we're just supposed to take your word for it, are we?
    I gave the link for his credentials. He is a "Creationist Archaeologist" whatever that is supposed to be. Perhaps it is akin to a flat earth astronomer!


    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Well firstly he is not an archaeologist, he's an engineer, and secondly he has fallen off his perch. https://creation.com/dr-bryant-g-wood

    I therefore do not think we need to give his ideas a great deal of credence.
    And we're just supposed to take your word for it, are we?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    ...glyphic/inscriptional evidence and ceramic typology would indicate that Garstang’s original date of ca. 1400 BC is the correct date. This would support the biblical chronology of Joshua’s army destroying Jericho in what we now call the Late Bronze Age I.

    https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2...on-at-jericho/
    Well firstly he is not an archaeologist, he's an engineer, and secondly he has fallen off his perch. https://creation.com/dr-bryant-g-wood

    I therefore do not think we need to give his ideas a great deal of credence.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    ...glyphic/inscriptional evidence and ceramic typology would indicate that Garstang’s original date of ca. 1400 BC is the correct date. This would support the biblical chronology of Joshua’s army destroying Jericho in what we now call the Late Bronze Age I.

    https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2...on-at-jericho/

    Leave a comment:

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