Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Ancient Sources: History and Theology.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    I am still waiting for you to provide detailed citations.
    As you've been informed, nobody is playing your little games any more.

    The things that you demand citations for are such common knowledge, that have been repeatedly verified, that your continual insistence for citations has served to expose your abysmal understanding of yet another topic you sought to pontificate upon

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    I think the more important question here is why does it upset you so much when someone demonstrates that many of these supposed contradictions are anything but? You appear to have an awful lot invested in the examples being contradictions to the point of being unwilling to even entertain other very plausible explanations.

    And as I've repeatedly noted that when you have different people who witnessed the same thing describing it, you are bound to have different versions including both apparent contradictions and actual ones. The latter is often due to one of the sources being privy to information that the others were not. That's why I brought up asking an attorney or judge about such testimony. And I'll say your reaction, calling such a suggestion "prattling" and "feeble" says far more about you than anything. It appeared to do more than just upset you.

    One thing you appear to have confused is that for Christians we don't put our faith in the historical exactitude of Scripture but in the historical reality of the Resurrection which is what Paul meant in I Corinthians 15 when he wrote "if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain" (v.14) and "if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins" (v.17). But even so, many of your objections and "contradictions" have the solidity of vapor.


    Compared to the other accounts, Mathew's is short and to the point, skipping over many details that the others covered. He did appear to want to deal with the stolen body claim but then rushes along to the Great Commission.

    And an earthquake in a region prone to seismic activity. Obviously impossible. And even more impossible to have one take place around the time of Jesus' crucifixion[1].

    Moreover, several scholars have noted that the word σεισμος and translated as "earthquake" here actually signifying any kind of shaking, whether in the earth, air, or sea (for instance in Matthew 8:24 it is translated as meaning "tempest" or "storm." IOW, the word here might be better understood to be a large storm.

    Finally, IMHO, Matthew described not something that was witnessed but rather inferred it from what they saw as the various translations such as the NASB make clearer by stating

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 28:2

    And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone, and sat upon it

    © Copyright Original Source



    [*Bolding added by rogue06*] and please note how this would also indicate that the women inferred that the angel descended from Heaven, not that they witnessed it.


    Did you actually bother to think this snark through before writing it? Aside from the fact that Mark was already published and that Matthew makes use of it as a framework for his own account, given that this was largely a society that heavily relied on oral accounts, it is safe to presume there were a number of those circulating as well.

    Moreover, it is further safe to surmise that the one thing that any Christian had heard about Jesus was the resurrection account (again, I Cor. 15), since without it there is no Christianity.

    So, yes, others had already covered it.


    Aside from the fact that one should have first cited an instance of "unsupported speculation" before whining about "more unsupported speculation," it is a reasonable explanation. After all, you are the one who wants everyone to believe that these things are unexplainable contradictions, so it is only natural to provide what you claim doesn't exist.


    At the very least by reputation. It was still a small community and it would be irrational to suppose otherwise. I mean, have you noticed how in Paul's letters he personally addresses various members of the community? When it came to the leaders and most prominent members, yes, they would have been familiar with one another.


    Again, when someone proclaims that these are contradictions that can't be explained, all one has to do is provide a potential logical answer. Since you're the one insisting that they are contradicting each other it is incumbent on you to show why this could not be the case rather than just... dare I say, scoffing.


    Are you serious or are you finally dropping your "historian" charade? Folks wee able to determine the likely original audiences for the various Gospels centuries before either you or I were even a thought, and current scholarship has only reinforced those conclusions.

    Google either Matthew or Mark along with "audience" and I'm sure you can get enough confirmation of this to satisfy someone even as jaded as yourself.


    So... "likely a Jewish Christian one living within or close to Judea." So then what are you going on about?

    Complaining just to hear yourself complain?


    So... "likely a Jewish Christian one living within or close to Judea." So then what are you going on about?

    Complaining just to hear yourself complain?


    *Snort* An odd conclusion given that the above verified what I said.


    What makes you think that I said gospels? Go back and read what I wrote again. And maybe you might actually catch where I provided brief corroboration as well.

    You know, for someone who proclaims to be a historian -- especially one who goes around boasting of how "with regard to the discipline of history I know a great more than most of the contributors to these boards" -- you really have no clue about any of this do you? The ignorance you keep displaying, such as here, would likely result in your being snickered at by adolescents in a Sunday School class since they're likely far more familiar with the basics than you have revealed yourself to be.

    This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes, this one from the noted paleontologist Per Ahlberg: "First understand, then criticize; not the other way round!" It really is good advice.


    Once again, when someone proclaims that these are contradictions that can't be explained, all one has to do is provide a potential logical answer. Since you're the one insisting that they are contradicting each other it is incumbent on you to show why this could not be the case rather than just... dare I say, scoffing.


    Please pay attention to the bolded part. So which end of the economic spectrum do you think that the overwhelming majority of these early Christians belonged to?

    I would say that it is common knowledge that most were poor and even slaves, with leaders being fishermen (Peter), tent makers (Paul) and the like, but that would like result in your incredulously demanding a list of scholars and therefore yet again expose just how little of the elementary basics you know.


    Again, when someone proclaims that these are contradictions that can't be explained, all one has to do is provide a potential logical answer. Since you're the one insisting that they are contradicting each other it is incumbent on you to show why this could not be the case rather than just... dare I say, scoffing.


    Very telling that you would "[snip] for irrelevancy" this, as we shall see:

    And while John only mentions Mary Magdalene, it is clear she was not alone because she uses the term "we" when describing events. So for whatever reason John wanted the spotlight on her. And even if he wasn't specifically trying to emphasize her role, it is hardly unusual to mention only the leader of the group when they do something. for instance, it is not uncommon to talk about how Caesar conquered Gaul, or Hannibal crossed the Alps. Obviously they did not do it alone and saying it that way is not contradicting the facts that they did so at the head of armies.



    This was all explained in detail in the post as well as the portion you proclaimed "irrelevant." And now we can see why you wanted to ignore it.


    Mein Gott you really are ignorant! Then how do you explain Luke 24:12? And apparently you forgot that Mark has a rather abrupt ending so it would hardly be possible for him to be mentioned in it. Further, you conveniently omitted the Fourth Gospel, where the role of Peter is spotlighted. Was that deliberate or just more ignorance?




    The one you refused to discuss, hysterically dismissing it as "prattling" and "feeble"?

    No. I think the judge will see if they are indeed contradictions or if there are reasonable, logical explanations for most of these supposed contradictions.

    Unfortunately, being this isn't a court, there is no cross-examination that could clarify these matters. Without it we must then see if there are reasonable explanations. Things like how common it is to describe a large group by the person leading them (see the Caesar and Hannibal examples that disturbed you so much. Or how they might only mention one person by name but indicate there were others be the use of "we" in the next sentence. And just the simple fact that different people naturally recollect events they witnessed differently, such as stressing or minimizing various factors (or even omitting things that they think are irrelevant), and may be privy to something others weren't and therefore able to expand on what others saw.

    Or you could just chuck all that out the window and declare that they simply must, Must, MUST be irreconcilable contradictions because you need them to be so in order to rationalize your position


    I was kind of hoping you would have gotten into the men/angels "contradictions" as well because I want to delve into that one as well. If you do want to discuss them then please first at the very least read the pertinent chapters of the relevant texts so you don't keep making such silly mistakes as you repeatedly did here. Maybe they have a Bible for Dummies or an Idiot's Guide to the Bible that you could use to help you bone up.






    1. to be clear neither I nor the study's authors say that they found evidence of Matthew's earthquake, but they certainly drive an ocean liner-sized hole through your ridiculing it.
    I am still waiting for you to provide detailed citations.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Why can you just not accept that these four texts manifestly contradict one another? All this prattle about attorneys and judges is entirely irrelevant and a feeble attempt to suggest that the internal narratives of these four gospel accounts have some attested veracity.
    I think the more important question here is why does it upset you so much when someone demonstrates that many of these supposed contradictions are anything but? You appear to have an awful lot invested in the examples being contradictions to the point of being unwilling to even entertain other very plausible explanations.

    And as I've repeatedly noted that when you have different people who witnessed the same thing describing it, you are bound to have different versions including both apparent contradictions and actual ones. The latter is often due to one of the sources being privy to information that the others were not. That's why I brought up asking an attorney or judge about such testimony. And I'll say your reaction, calling such a suggestion "prattling" and "feeble" says far more about you than anything. It appeared to do more than just upset you.

    One thing you appear to have confused is that for Christians we don't put our faith in the historical exactitude of Scripture but in the historical reality of the Resurrection which is what Paul meant in I Corinthians 15 when he wrote "if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain" (v.14) and "if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins" (v.17). But even so, many of your objections and "contradictions" have the solidity of vapor.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Hardly! The author alleges there was an earthquake and one angel descending from heaven.
    Compared to the other accounts, Mathew's is short and to the point, skipping over many details that the others covered. He did appear to want to deal with the stolen body claim but then rushes along to the Great Commission.

    And an earthquake in a region prone to seismic activity. Obviously impossible. And even more impossible to have one take place around the time of Jesus' crucifixion[1].

    Moreover, several scholars have noted that the word σεισμος and translated as "earthquake" here actually signifying any kind of shaking, whether in the earth, air, or sea (for instance in Matthew 8:24 it is translated as meaning "tempest" or "storm." IOW, the word here might be better understood to be a large storm.

    Finally, IMHO, Matthew described not something that was witnessed but rather inferred it from what they saw as the various translations such as the NASB make clearer by stating

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 28:2

    And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone, and sat upon it

    © Copyright Original Source



    [*Bolding added by rogue06*] and please note how this would also indicate that the women inferred that the angel descended from Heaven, not that they witnessed it.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    How would he know what the others "had already covered"? Did they have an meeting prior to “going to papyri” in order to decide what to include and omit from their respective narratives?
    Did you actually bother to think this snark through before writing it? Aside from the fact that Mark was already published and that Matthew makes use of it as a framework for his own account, given that this was largely a society that heavily relied on oral accounts, it is safe to presume there were a number of those circulating as well.

    Moreover, it is further safe to surmise that the one thing that any Christian had heard about Jesus was the resurrection account (again, I Cor. 15), since without it there is no Christianity.

    So, yes, others had already covered it.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    More unsupported speculation.
    Aside from the fact that one should have first cited an instance of "unsupported speculation" before whining about "more unsupported speculation," it is a reasonable explanation. After all, you are the one who wants everyone to believe that these things are unexplainable contradictions, so it is only natural to provide what you claim doesn't exist.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Why? You allege these four authors all knew one another.
    At the very least by reputation. It was still a small community and it would be irrational to suppose otherwise. I mean, have you noticed how in Paul's letters he personally addresses various members of the community? When it came to the leaders and most prominent members, yes, they would have been familiar with one another.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Unsupported speculation.
    Again, when someone proclaims that these are contradictions that can't be explained, all one has to do is provide a potential logical answer. Since you're the one insisting that they are contradicting each other it is incumbent on you to show why this could not be the case rather than just... dare I say, scoffing.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Might we have the names of those scholars and their respective observations?
    Are you serious or are you finally dropping your "historian" charade? Folks wee able to determine the likely original audiences for the various Gospels centuries before either you or I were even a thought, and current scholarship has only reinforced those conclusions.

    Google either Matthew or Mark along with "audience" and I'm sure you can get enough confirmation of this to satisfy someone even as jaded as yourself.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    The place of origin for this text is more likely to have been in Antioch, which was the capital of the Roman province of Syria, and the city where [according to Acts 11.26] Jesus’ disciples were first called Christians.
    So... "likely a Jewish Christian one living within or close to Judea." So then what are you going on about?

    Complaining just to hear yourself complain?

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    ...and the intended audience was possibly an enclave of urban Greek-speaking Jewish converts. [see Howard Clarke, The Gospel of Matthew and its Readers, Indiana University Press, 2003]
    So... "likely a Jewish Christian one living within or close to Judea." So then what are you going on about?

    Complaining just to hear yourself complain?

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Unsupported speculation given the above.
    *Snort* An odd conclusion given that the above verified what I said.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    What makes you think that these gospels were written for primarily Jewish audiences?
    What makes you think that I said gospels? Go back and read what I wrote again. And maybe you might actually catch where I provided brief corroboration as well.

    You know, for someone who proclaims to be a historian -- especially one who goes around boasting of how "with regard to the discipline of history I know a great more than most of the contributors to these boards" -- you really have no clue about any of this do you? The ignorance you keep displaying, such as here, would likely result in your being snickered at by adolescents in a Sunday School class since they're likely far more familiar with the basics than you have revealed yourself to be.

    This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes, this one from the noted paleontologist Per Ahlberg: "First understand, then criticize; not the other way round!" It really is good advice.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Unsupported speculation
    Once again, when someone proclaims that these are contradictions that can't be explained, all one has to do is provide a potential logical answer. Since you're the one insisting that they are contradicting each other it is incumbent on you to show why this could not be the case rather than just... dare I say, scoffing.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Well that depends.

    From Roger S Bagnall's Everyday Writing in the Graeco-Roman World, University of California Press, 2011, chapter 6, p.134.

    That is not to say that papyrus was not used for short letters, for tax receipts and order for payment and so on. [...] Was cost a factor?...Cheap or costly is a judgment that depends on an individual’s circumstances. A roll of blank papyrus cost a bit over one-eighth of what an artaba of wheat did, according to an account written around 338-341 CE. Two centuries earlier, the situation was not a lot different, if the calculations of T.C. Skeat are to be believed. At that rate, a sheet of papyrus would cost something like a quarter to a third of the value of the food for an active adult for a day. If a sheet of paper cost you as much as a hamburger, would you choose a free alternative [here Bagnall is referencing ostraca] for short texts you (or the recipient) would surely throw away almost immediately? It all depends on how wealthy you were.
    Please pay attention to the bolded part. So which end of the economic spectrum do you think that the overwhelming majority of these early Christians belonged to?

    I would say that it is common knowledge that most were poor and even slaves, with leaders being fishermen (Peter), tent makers (Paul) and the like, but that would like result in your incredulously demanding a list of scholars and therefore yet again expose just how little of the elementary basics you know.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Again somewhat speculative comments.
    Again, when someone proclaims that these are contradictions that can't be explained, all one has to do is provide a potential logical answer. Since you're the one insisting that they are contradicting each other it is incumbent on you to show why this could not be the case rather than just... dare I say, scoffing.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Snipped for irrelevancy.
    Very telling that you would "[snip] for irrelevancy" this, as we shall see:

    And while John only mentions Mary Magdalene, it is clear she was not alone because she uses the term "we" when describing events. So for whatever reason John wanted the spotlight on her. And even if he wasn't specifically trying to emphasize her role, it is hardly unusual to mention only the leader of the group when they do something. for instance, it is not uncommon to talk about how Caesar conquered Gaul, or Hannibal crossed the Alps. Obviously they did not do it alone and saying it that way is not contradicting the facts that they did so at the head of armies.


    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    That depends upon how many women are being referenced. In Luke 24.10 "Now it was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them who told this to the apostles". That sounds like quite a large party and no other gospel mentions Joanna.
    This was all explained in detail in the post as well as the portion you proclaimed "irrelevant." And now we can see why you wanted to ignore it.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    The accounts of Matthew, Mark, and Luke do not mention him at all.
    Mein Gott you really are ignorant! Then how do you explain Luke 24:12? And apparently you forgot that Mark has a rather abrupt ending so it would hardly be possible for him to be mentioned in it. Further, you conveniently omitted the Fourth Gospel, where the role of Peter is spotlighted. Was that deliberate or just more ignorance?



    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    To return to your legal comparison I can envisage any semi competent judge throwing out your “eye-witness” accounts as mutually contradictory and therefore unsound and inadmissible evidence.
    The one you refused to discuss, hysterically dismissing it as "prattling" and "feeble"?

    No. I think the judge will see if they are indeed contradictions or if there are reasonable, logical explanations for most of these supposed contradictions.

    Unfortunately, being this isn't a court, there is no cross-examination that could clarify these matters. Without it we must then see if there are reasonable explanations. Things like how common it is to describe a large group by the person leading them (see the Caesar and Hannibal examples that disturbed you so much. Or how they might only mention one person by name but indicate there were others be the use of "we" in the next sentence. And just the simple fact that different people naturally recollect events they witnessed differently, such as stressing or minimizing various factors (or even omitting things that they think are irrelevant), and may be privy to something others weren't and therefore able to expand on what others saw.

    Or you could just chuck all that out the window and declare that they simply must, Must, MUST be irreconcilable contradictions because you need them to be so in order to rationalize your position


    I was kind of hoping you would have gotten into the men/angels "contradictions" as well because I want to delve into that one as well. If you do want to discuss them then please first at the very least read the pertinent chapters of the relevant texts so you don't keep making such silly mistakes as you repeatedly did here. Maybe they have a Bible for Dummies or an Idiot's Guide to the Bible that you could use to help you bone up.






    1. to be clear neither I nor the study's authors say that they found evidence of Matthew's earthquake, but they certainly drive an ocean liner-sized hole through your ridiculing it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Fair enough you do not wish to divulge your reasons.
    And the dancing continues.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    For what purpose did you dance around the portion of the article I actually cited and instead latch onto something wholly irrelevant?
    Fair enough you do not wish to divulge your reasons.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    For what purpose did you post the article?
    For what purpose did you dance around the portion of the article I actually cited and instead latch onto something wholly irrelevant?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    So?
    For what purpose did you post the article?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    While S. G. F. Brandon in his Pontius Pilate in history and legend suggests the ranks were effectively the same, with Warren Carter in his Pontius Pilate: Portraits of a Roman Governor arguing the difference was also largely in name what with "prefect" having a military connotation whereas "procurator" has a civilian one,
    Please provide detailed citations from both Brandon and Carter.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    several scholars have suggested that Tacitus uses procurator simply because it was far more common when he wrote.
    With regard to these “several scholars” please provided detailed citations from their respective works, [ideally with pagination].

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    According to Josephus and Modern Scholarship (1937-1980) something like only 13 of the 52 Josephus scholars he analyzed thought it was an interpolation or included one. And one of those who rejects it, Graham Twelftree, oddly enough accepts most of the Testimonium as being authentic.
    Please provide detailed citations from both Feldman and Twelftree in support of that remark.

    If you cannot, or will not, comply with these requests we can make no further progress.

    And finally please note:

    Caesarea Maritima was not “Pilate’s HQ”, it was the administrative capital of the province and where all governors would have been based during their term of office. Jerusalem was not the “capital” it was the cult centre of the Jewish religion.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    “What does his being from Alexandria have to do with anything? Are you claiming that would somehow mean he couldn't write about something that took place in Jerusalem?”
    If you had bothered to read the extract from Paul Winter you would know that Philo incorporated those comments about Pilate into his text from a letter written by Herod Agrippa I.

    While Pilate was in office in Judaea Agrippa lived in Damascus, Alexandria and Rome. However, in 37 CE after Gaius released Agrippa from prison he gave him the former tetrachies of Philip and in 39 CE his territories were augmented with Galilee and Perea. He therefore was in the region and had excellent opportunities [including contact with those who had known Pilate] for information on the former governor’s activities and personal character. He was thus able to include these in the letter that Philo incorporated into his text following the Alexandrian riots of 38 CE.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Much of Justus' writings are lost to us so it is very difficult to claim exactly what he did and didn't write about.
    On the contrary all of Justus’ writings are now lost to us. However, his Chronicle of the Kings of the Jews from Moses to Agrippa II was still extant in the ninth century when the Patriarch of Constantinople Photius [c.810-895] read it. Photius recorded, in his still extant Bibliotheca, a summary of its contents. In that he writes, “suffering from the common fault of the Jews, to which race he belonged, he [Justus] does not mention the coming of Christ, the events of his life, or the miracles performed by him.”



    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    If you were aware of these non Christian sources, I have to wonder why you made this categorical and patently erroneous statement:

    "But here we have a governor that we didn't have a scrap of documentation about outside of Christian sources." [My emphasis].


    Are you sure about that?

    Tbh, I had an ulterior motive aside from waiting for you to inevitably bring them up so that I could point out how they were summarily dismissed as inauthentic by the scoffers who need Pilate to be nothing more than a fictitious character. You know, sort of like how you like to decide for everyone which part of the Bible get the H_A seal of authenticity.

    Quite frankly I am a bit shocked that you somehow missed Tacitus.

    In any case, I was hoping to get you on record as acknowledging that the references in them are legitimate, since IIRC previously you said the ones in Josephus were later interpolations even though the consensus view is that while there was likely some tampering with the longer Testimonium Flavianum, there was a reference and that the shorter reference is indeed completely authentic. Unfortunately, for whatever reason you forgot Tacitus so I couldn't get you to comment on his reference.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    By the way who are “all of the scoffers”, “they”, and “atheists” to whom you repeatedly allude?
    Do you have any mirrors handy?

    Scoffers are disbelievers who are grimly determined to be atheists at all costs.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Why does Tacitus consider it necessary to explain to his audience the originator of this cult as well as the fate of its followers in Rome including the lurid tortures they suffered? Why does he explicitly refer to the public pity produced among the Roman populace by those cruelties? His intended readership would, one suspects, have had little interest in an insignificant oriental cult.
    Primarily to cast Nero in a bad light. He just used the Christians as a convenient club to do so. He certainly wasn't portraying them in a favorable light, given how he describes them a "class hated for their abominations" who practiced a "most mischievous superstition."

    Btw, as an aside, apparently the British Museum of Natural History is setting up an exhibit on Nero, promising to offer a "new look"

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    It is also even more questionable that he gets the nomenclature wrong regarding Pontius Pilate. Given Tacitus’ administrative background [Proconsul of Asia,112-113 CE and son in law of Cn. Julius Agricola] he would assuredly know that prior to 44 CE the governors of Judaea were designated Praefecti. After the death of Herod Agrippa I in 44 CE, when Rome once again assumed direct control of Judaea, the governors were given the title Procurator. After 71 CE, following the First Jewish War, the governor of Judaea was the commander [Legatus Legionis] of Legio X Fretensis which unit now constituted the military garrison of the province. Roman legionary legates were ex Praetors drawn from the Senatorial class, quite unlike the Praefectus Pontius Pilate who came from the equites/knights, that is [approximately] the Roman middle classes.
    While S. G. F. Brandon in his Pontius Pilate in history and legend suggests the ranks were effectively the same, with Warren Carter in his Pontius Pilate: Portraits of a Roman Governor arguing the difference was also largely in name what with "prefect" having a military connotation whereas "procurator" has a civilian one, several scholars have suggested that Tacitus uses procurator simply because it was far more common when he wrote. Moreover, it appears that Philo and Josephus both referred to Pilate as procurator and that Josephus refers to Cuspius Fadus both as "prefect" and "procurator" providing support for Brandon and Carter's theory.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    As for the comments in Josephus re James being the brother of the Christ, this is generally held to be genuine and not some later Christian interpolation. However, the possibility of emendation/interpolation always remains, given what we know concerning Josephus’ own hostile view of messianic claimants, wonder workers, and popular preachers; and the untold misery that their activities invariably wrought upon the ordinary people of Judaea.

    The other of the so-called Testimonia Flaviana as it has come down to us [found in extant Greek MSS of Josephus [Ambrosianus in the eleventh century, Vaticanus in the fourteenth, and Marcianus in the fifteenth] is another matter. It is quoted by Eusebius in the fourth century in his Evangelical Demonstration [3.5]; Ecclesiastical History [1.11] and the Theophany. However the Christian scholar Origen writing in the second century states of Josephus “Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ” [Commentary on Matthew X.17].
    The majority view among historians is that the so-called Testimonium Flavianum, has been modified by later writers whereas the offhand reference to him wrt to being the brother of James is largely regarded as authentic. Few scholars question its authenticity, most notably (surprise, surprise) Richard Carrier. According to Louis H. Feldman's Josephus and Modern Scholarship (1937-1980) something like only 13 of the 52 Josephus scholars he analyzed thought it was an interpolation or included one. And one of those who rejects it, Graham Twelftree, oddly enough accepts most of the Testimonium as being authentic.

    In a way it's remarkable that Jesus is even mentioned at all. Typically, for other Jewish Messianic figures, Roman troops needed to be called out to put them and their followers down. In fact the Gospels indicate that Pilate had no idea of who He even was when He was dragged before Him.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    We do know that the wife and sons of Septimus Severus accompanied him on his military campaign to Britain in 201-211 CE. Provincial governors and some senior officers may also have been accompanied by their spouses [depending on the location and nature of the posting] but why do you imagine Pilate’s wife [assuming he had one] would accompany him on a standard military/administrative exercise that would have lasted for two or possibly three weeks?
    She could very well have had her own reasons for wanting to go to Jerusalem. Pilate's HQ was in Caesarea Maritima (a.k.a., Caesarea Palaestinae), a relatively new city originally built to serve as the port for Herod’s newly built city at Sebaste (although it would later become the capital of the Province after the Romans razed Jerusalem) and she could well have accompanied him to the larger capital on a short trip.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    The first century Jew we know as Jesus of Nazareth was not a divinity.
    Naked assertion unburdened by corroboration.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    To be acclaimed as [or being suspected of claiming] Messianic status in Judaea at this period was a serious political offence and carried the death penalty.
    Not so much from the Jews who were anxiously expecting the arrival of a Messiah, but obviously from the Romans as we can see from their crucifixion of Jesus.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Nor is the Jewish Messiah a divinity. In Judaism there is only one ineffable and transcendent deity. That deity is not triune, nor is it homoousion, and neither does it possess three distinct hypostases. These theological conceptions were only formulated much later in the history of Christianity.
    That the Jews expected a military leader as Messiah is a historical fact. That they missed all the indications provided in the New Testament that this would not be the case is obvious (personally I think the earlier success of the Maccabeans colored their expectations). I can't blame them since the Gospels indicate that even Jesus' closest followers expected a military leader for a Messiah.

    This is obviously speculation but then all you have offered is personal incredulousness

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    What I do not understand is why you made a categorical statement that “we didn't have a scrap of documentation about outside of Christian sources.” And then suddenly, and after I mentioned Josephus and Philo, you are acknowledging that we actually do have “documentation” that is “outside of Christian sources”, thereby completely contradicting your initial somewhat emphatic pronouncement.
    See comments at beginning of this post. The point was you weren't supposed to understand. I just wanted you on record defending those citations as authentic (you wouldn't bring them up as evidence otherwise).

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    No he does not. He had nothing to do with Jerusalem.

    Once again you demonstrate your profound ignorance of the matter.
    Then what would you call the mention in his Embassy to Gaius wrt Pilate breaking Jewish law when he brought golden shields into Jerusalem to be placed on Herod's Palace? An action that caused the Jews to petition the Emperor, resulting in Tiberius reprimanding Pilate and ordering that the shields be removed? Haven't you repeatedly boasted that you're an historian even bagging how, "with regard to the discipline of history I know a great more than most of the contributors to these boards"? Talk about your "profound ignorance of the matter"

    As an aside, Josephus recounts a similar instance involving Pilate and imperial standards with the image of Caesar being brought into Jerusalem.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    For your information Philo of Alexandria led the Alexandrian Jewish delegation to the Roman emperor Gaius [Caligula] following the Alexandrian riots of 38 CE and the brutal attacks on Alexandrian Jews. The text of which you write is in fact from a letter written by Herod Agrippa and which Philo incorporated into his own text.
    What does his being from Alexandria have to do with anything? Are you claiming that would somehow mean he couldn't write about something that took place in Jerusalem?

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    From A Letter from Pontius Pilate, Paul Winter, Novum Testamentum, Mar., 1964, Vol 7 pp.37-43, Brill.

    Of the persons whose names are mentioned in the gospels, Pontius Pilate of one of the few about whom we are informed relatively well from independent sources. One of these so comes from Pilate's own time. It is a letter, written by Agrippa I which gives some account of Pilate's rule in Judaea and a detailed description of the prefect's character. Philo of Alexandria incorporated the letter in question in his Legatio ad Caium and thus we have a sketch of Pilate's personality from the hand of one of his contemporaries. Agrippa describes Pilate as "a man of inflexible disposition, ruthless and obstinate" (Legatio 30I) ;he mentions the procurator's proneness to corruption, his insolent demeanour, his rapine, his inveterate habit of wounding the feelings of other persons, his cruelty which resulted in numerous murders of people neither tried nor legally condemned, and of his outright inhumanity to those whom he governed. Agrippa concludes his description of Pilate by calling him "a man who at all times displayed ferocious passions".

    Of the authenticity of this letter there is no doubt. It is the earliest extant document to mention Pilate by name, and only one that comes from any of his contemporaries.
    Weren't you just making a fuss about how Philo was an Alexandrian and had nothing to do with Jerusalem and the like?

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Given that you have previously stated “we didn't have a scrap of documentation about outside of Christian sourcesI would look to your own ignorance on these matters.

    And again I must press you. Who are these “atheists” to whom you regularly refer? Your repeated references to "atheists" and "scoffers" is beginning to hint at slight paranoia.
    See above.

    Did you realize that your posts would be shorter if you didn't repeat yourself over and over?

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    I do not keep demanding” extraneous contemporary sources about the existence of Jesus. I simply point out that none exist.
    Nor should we expect any to exist for a number of reasons and yet you continue to harp on this as if it were important. That why I said you keep demanding it.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    The Jewish writer Justus of Tiberias, a contemporary of Josephus, and who lived not far from Capernaum, a small town closely associated in the gospels with Jesus and his ministry, never mentions the man. Nor of course does Philo [another contemporary] albeit one living at some distance from the alleged events in Judaea.
    Much of Justus' writings are lost to us so it is very difficult to claim exactly what he did and didn't write about. As for Philo, he never mentions Gamaliel, who he was also a contemporary of, either.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Not necessarily. This was a relatively minor province.
    Unintended irony always tastes best.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    If the praefectus managed to keep the peace and the taxes were regularly collected there would be little apparent need for anything else to be regularly “mentioned in dispatches” And of course we have the contemporary account from Agrippa via Philo on Pilate. Something of which you seem [once again] blissfully unaware.
    One who poses as a historian lecturing someone about omitting sources who then proceeds to skip over Tacitus probably should be more careful about blissfully unaware.

    Pilate's name would be on all the reports sent and likely received. And even in a time of peace, that would be a lot. There would be also be all sorts of incidental references as well. Stuff like local records and receipts for goods sent to him.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    What is the relevance of your question?
    An oblique reference to your sneers about how Jesus was a nobody in his lifetime (which brings up the point of why would you then expect him to be mentioned by everyone?).

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    What a bizarre comment. Firstly, who cares? Secondly, to whom are you apologising? Me?
    In the past you've shown a tendency to get upset when you don't get an immediate response, hysterically going on about being "pusillanimous" and "cowardly" not responding, so I wanted to assure you that wasn't the case.
    Last edited by rogue06; 05-17-2021, 10:47 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    [QUOTE=Hypatia_Alexandria;n1266987]
    Errata for post #89

    Nor have I never read any serious work that questioned the existence of Pontius Pilate. Should read: Nor have I ever read any serious work that questioned the existence of Pontius Pilate.

    From Paul Winter citation: incorporated the letter in question in his Legatio ad Caium Should read:incorporated the letter in question in his Legatio ad Gaium

    Again who are these “scoffers” to who you regularly allude?
    Should read: Again who are these “scoffers” to whom you regularly allude?

    Nor of course does Philo [another contemporary] albeit one living at some distance from the alleged events in Judaea. Should read: Nor of course does Philo [another contemporary] albeit one living at some distance from the alleged events in Judaea and Galilee.




    [QUOTE=rogue06;n1266743] why would you expect to find any for Jesus, who would have been completely unknown outside of Galilee and Judea [/quote

    Should be:

    [QUOTE=rogue06;n1266743] (but boy did that change)?

    Should be:
    And another:

    ordinary people of Judaea. Should read: ordinary Jewish people. That was an oversight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied

    Errata for post #89

    Nor have I never read any serious work that questioned the existence of Pontius Pilate. Should read: Nor have I ever read any serious work that questioned the existence of Pontius Pilate.

    From Paul Winter citation: incorporated the letter in question in his Legatio ad Caium Should read:incorporated the letter in question in his Legatio ad Gaium

    Again who are these “scoffers” to who you regularly allude?
    Should read: Again who are these “scoffers” to whom you regularly allude?

    Nor of course does Philo [another contemporary] albeit one living at some distance from the alleged events in Judaea. Should read: Nor of course does Philo [another contemporary] albeit one living at some distance from the alleged events in Judaea and Galilee.




    [QUOTE=rogue06;n1266743] why would you expect to find any for Jesus, who would have been completely unknown outside of Galilee and Judea [/quote

    Should be:
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    why would you expect to find any for Jesus, who would have been completely unknown outside of Galilee and Judea
    [QUOTE=rogue06;n1266743] (but boy did that change)?[quote]

    Should be:

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    (but boy did that change)?
    Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 05-17-2021, 05:22 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    I'll go over this one again since you ignored it the first time[snipped for irrelevancy].
    Why can you just not accept that these four texts manifestly contradict one another? All this prattle about attorneys and judges is entirely irrelevant and a feeble attempt to suggest that the internal narratives of these four gospel accounts have some attested veracity.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    As I previously noted, Matthew appears to give a fairly bare bones accounting of it
    Hardly! The author alleges there was an earthquake and one angel descending from heaven.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Very possibly, the one thing that folks interested in Christianity had already heard about was the Resurrection and since paper and ink were expensive he may very well have decided not to waste it going into detail about what others had already covered
    How would he know what the others "had already covered"? Did they have an meeting prior to “going to papyri” in order to decide what to include and omit from their respective narratives?

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    , and as I noted, he wanted to focus on the commission Jesus bestowed upon his followers, hence laying the foundation for their evangelizing.
    More unsupported speculation.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Both Matthew and Mark mention Mary Magdalene as going. They also mention a second Mary, who they described differently.
    Why? You allege these four authors all knew one another.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    This is likely because Matthew's audience may have been familiar with who she was so "the other Mary" sufficed, whereas Mark's audience needed a better identifier.
    Unsupported speculation.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    This is supported by the belief among scholars that Matthew's original audience was likely a Jewish Christian one living within or close to Judea,
    Might we have the names of those scholars and their respective observations?

    The place of origin for this text is more likely to have been in Antioch, which was the capital of the Roman province of Syria, and the city where [according to Acts 11.26] Jesus’ disciples were first called Christians. Matthew is first cited by Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, in the second century; and Syria is mentioned in Matthew 4:24. The prominence given to Peter in this gospel may reflect his importance to the Antioch community where one tradtion made him a bishop before he went on to Rome. The gospel is written in koine [common] Greek, the lingua franca of Rome’s Eastern empire and the intended audience was possibly an enclave of urban Greek-speaking Jewish converts. [see Howard Clarke, The Gospel of Matthew and its Readers, Indiana University Press, 2003]

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    which would certainly increase the chances that they were very familiar with this Mary,
    Unsupported speculation given the above.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    whereas Mark's audience were likely Roman and not Jewish (as evidenced by his constantly explaining things that a Jew would need no explanation for), so a little more detail explaining who the second Mary was might have been necessary.
    What makes you think that these gospels were written for primarily Jewish audiences?

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    As for Salome, who only Mark mentions, this could either be due to Mark's audience being familiar with her or the reasons others don't mention her might simply because she doesn't play much of a role later on so no need to mention her and therefore explain who she is.
    Unsupported speculation

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Again, remember, this was a time when paper and ink were expensive so no need to waste it on what they regarded unimportant details.
    Well that depends.

    From Roger S Bagnall's Everyday Writing in the Graeco-Roman World, University of California Press, 2011, chapter 6, p.134.

    That is not to say that papyrus was not used for short letters, for tax receipts and order for payment and so on. [...] Was cost a factor?...Cheap or costly is a judgment that depends on an individual’s circumstances. A roll of blank papyrus cost a bit over one-eighth of what an artaba of wheat did, according to an account written around 338-341 CE. Two centuries earlier, the situation was not a lot different, if the calculations of T.C. Skeat are to be believed. At that rate, a sheet of papyrus would cost something like a quarter to a third of the value of the food for an active adult for a day. If a sheet of paper cost you as much as a hamburger, would you choose a free alternative [here Bagnall is referencing ostraca] for short texts you (or the recipient) would surely throw away almost immediately? It all depends on how wealthy you were.


    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    And while John only mentions Mary Magdalene, it is clear she was not alone because she uses the term "we" when describing events. So for whatever reason John wanted the spotlight on her. And even if he wasn't specifically trying to emphasize her role, it is hardly unusual to mention only the leader of the group when they do something. for instance,
    Again somewhat speculative comments.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    it is not uncommon to talk about how Caesar
    Snipped for irrelevancy.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    And do you seriously think mention of "the women" is some sort of contradiction?
    That depends upon how many women are being referenced. In Luke 24.10 "Now it was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them who told this to the apostles". That sounds like quite a large party and no other gospel mentions Joanna.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    And Peter was there with them later, he didn't accompany them at dawn to anoint the body (which IIRC was considered a woman's duty)
    The accounts of Matthew, Mark, and Luke do not mention him at all.

    To return to your legal comparison I can envisage any semi competent judge throwing out your “eye-witness” accounts as mutually contradictory and therefore unsound and inadmissible evidence.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Actually I am aware
    If you were aware of these non Christian sources, I have to wonder why you made this categorical and patently erroneous statement:

    "But here we have a governor that we didn't have a scrap of documentation about outside of Christian sources." [My emphasis].

    By the way who are “all of the scoffers”, “they”, and “atheists” to whom you repeatedly allude?

    Nor have I never read any serious work that questioned the existence of Pontius Pilate.

    Why does Tacitus consider it necessary to explain to his audience the originator of this cult as well as the fate of its followers in Rome including the lurid tortures they suffered? Why does he explicitly refer to the public pity produced among the Roman populace by those cruelties? His intended readership would, one suspects, have had little interest in an insignificant oriental cult.

    It is also even more questionable that he gets the nomenclature wrong regarding Pontius Pilate. Given Tacitus’ administrative background [Proconsul of Asia,112-113 CE and son in law of Cn. Julius Agricola] he would assuredly know that prior to 44 CE the governors of Judaea were designated Praefecti. After the death of Herod Agrippa I in 44 CE, when Rome once again assumed direct control of Judaea, the governors were given the title Procurator. After 71 CE, following the First Jewish War, the governor of Judaea was the commander [Legatus Legionis] of Legio X Fretensis which unit now constituted the military garrison of the province. Roman legionary legates were ex Praetors drawn from the Senatorial class, quite unlike the Praefectus Pontius Pilate who came from the equites/knights, that is [approximately] the Roman middle classes.

    As for the comments in Josephus re James being the brother of the Christ, this is generally held to be genuine and not some later Christian interpolation. However, the possibility of emendation/interpolation always remains, given what we know concerning Josephus’ own hostile view of messianic claimants, wonder workers, and popular preachers; and the untold misery that their activities invariably wrought upon the ordinary people of Judaea.

    The other of the so-called Testimonia Flaviana as it has come down to us [found in extant Greek MSS of Josephus [Ambrosianus in the eleventh century, Vaticanus in the fourteenth, and Marcianus in the fifteenth] is another matter. It is quoted by Eusebius in the fourth century in his Evangelical Demonstration [3.5]; Ecclesiastical History [1.11] and the Theophany. However the Christian scholar Origen writing in the second century states of Josephus “Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ” [Commentary on Matthew X.17].

    We must therefore conclude that either this passage in Josephus received a few later Christian glosses or the entire passage was later inserted by a Christian hand at that point in the text.

    It should also be considered that, as a practising and observant Jew, Josephus would not allege that a crucified messianic agitator was some sort of supernatural entity. Furthermore, given that he was writing under Roman imperial patronage, he would not have authenticated the validity of an event that was obviously seditious and antagonistic to Roman order.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    For the scoffers the discovery of the "Pilate Stone" was the first "legitimate" piece of evidence of his existence. until then, they dismissed him as a fictional character.
    Again who are these “scoffers” to who you regularly allude?

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    A wife going to be with her husband. Why that's so rare and unheard of that obviously we must therefore dismiss anything that mentions it
    We do know that the wife and sons of Septimus Severus accompanied him on his military campaign to Britain in 201-211 CE. Provincial governors and some senior officers may also have been accompanied by their spouses [depending on the location and nature of the posting] but why do you imagine Pilate’s wife [assuming he had one] would accompany him on a standard military/administrative exercise that would have lasted for two or possibly three weeks?

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    And you keep making this assertion without ever providing evidence for it.
    The first century Jew we know as Jesus of Nazareth was not a divinity. To be acclaimed as [or being suspected of claiming] Messianic status in Judaea at this period was a serious political offence and carried the death penalty.

    Nor is the Jewish Messiah a divinity. In Judaism there is only one ineffable and transcendent deity. That deity is not triune, nor is it homoousion, and neither does it possess three distinct hypostases. These theological conceptions were only formulated much later in the history of Christianity.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    See my first comment above, and I'll note that you excluded Tacitus
    See my comment on this section in Tacitus’ Annals.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    What I don't understand is why so many scoffers dismissed Pilate as being a fictitious person in spite of three separate references.
    What I do not understand is why you made a categorical statement that “we didn't have a scrap of documentation about outside of Christian sources.” And then suddenly, and after I mentioned Josephus and Philo, you are acknowledging that we actually do have “documentation” that is “outside of Christian sources”, thereby completely contradicting your initial somewhat emphatic pronouncement.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    If you read Philo, he rails at Pilate for various acts that upset the Jews in Jerusalem.
    No he does not. He had nothing to do with Jerusalem.

    Once again you demonstrate your profound ignorance of the matter.

    For your information Philo of Alexandria led the Alexandrian Jewish delegation to the Roman emperor Gaius [Caligula] following the Alexandrian riots of 38 CE and the brutal attacks on Alexandrian Jews. The text of which you write is in fact from a letter written by Herod Agrippa and which Philo incorporated into his own text.

    From A Letter from Pontius Pilate, Paul Winter, Novum Testamentum, Mar., 1964, Vol 7 pp.37-43, Brill.

    Of the persons whose names are mentioned in the gospels, Pontius Pilate of one of the few about whom we are informed relatively well from independent sources. One of these so comes from Pilate's own time. It is a letter, written by Agrippa I which gives some account of Pilate's rule in Judaea and a detailed description of the prefect's character. Philo of Alexandria incorporated the letter in question in his Legatio ad Caium and thus we have a sketch of Pilate's personality from the hand of one of his contemporaries. Agrippa describes Pilate as "a man of inflexible disposition, ruthless and obstinate" (Legatio 30I) ;he mentions the procurator's proneness to corruption, his insolent demeanour, his rapine, his inveterate habit of wounding the feelings of other persons, his cruelty which resulted in numerous murders of people neither tried nor legally condemned, and of his outright inhumanity to those whom he governed. Agrippa concludes his description of Pilate by calling him "a man who at all times displayed ferocious passions".

    Of the authenticity of this letter there is no doubt. It is the earliest extant document to mention Pilate by name, and only one that comes from any of his contemporaries.


    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    He says nothing about Jesus or the Christians, yet atheists felt some bizarre compulsion to deny that reference.
    Given that you have previously stated “we didn't have a scrap of documentation about outside of Christian sourcesI would look to your own ignorance on these matters.

    And again I must press you. Who are these “atheists” to whom you regularly refer? Your repeated references to "atheists" and "scoffers" is beginning to hint at slight paranoia.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    The bolded is a point that I've repeatedly made and yet for some reason you keep demanding contemporary writings documenting the existence of Jesus
    I do not keep demanding” extraneous contemporary sources about the existence of Jesus. I simply point out that none exist. The Jewish writer Justus of Tiberias, a contemporary of Josephus, and who lived not far from Capernaum, a small town closely associated in the gospels with Jesus and his ministry, never mentions the man. Nor of course does Philo [another contemporary] albeit one living at some distance from the alleged events in Judaea.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    If we have none for Pilate (the three citations date from many decades later)
    How do you arrive at that conclusion regarding Philo of Alexandria’s writing?

    I hardly think 41 CE counts as many decades later. If we accept Jesus’ execution took place somewhere between 30-36 CE we are considering [at the very most] a mere eleven years.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    who was a Roman governor and would be mentioned in all sorts of documents
    Not necessarily. This was a relatively minor province. If the praefectus managed to keep the peace and the taxes were regularly collected there would be little apparent need for anything else to be regularly “mentioned in dispatches” And of course we have the contemporary account from Agrippa via Philo on Pilate. Something of which you seem [once again] blissfully unaware.

    [QUOTE=rogue06;n1266743] why would you expect to find any for Jesus, who would have been completely unknown outside of Galilee and Judea [/quote Yet another Jewish rebel being crucified was hardly a matter of any major significance or immediate importance to Rome or its provincial administration.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    (as you say, a "backwater") during his lifetime
    No I wrote that it was a “comparative backwater”.

    [QUOTE=rogue06;n1266743] (but boy did that change)?[quote] What is the relevance of your question?

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Moderated By: rogue06
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

    My apologies. I thought I posted this Thursday, but when I looked for it I couldn't find it. Apparently I never hit "Post Reply" so it has been sitting there in the "Restore or Delete" file since then
    What a bizarre comment. Firstly, who cares? Secondly, to whom are you apologising? Me?

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post


    Who actually went to the tomb?
    • Mary Magdalene and the other Mary?
    • Mary Magdalene, Jesus' mother, and Salome?
    • The "women"?
    • Mary Magdalene, Simon Peter and the other disciple whom Jesus loved?
    I'll go over this one again since you ignored it the first time.

    When you have separate witnesses describing something they saw or experienced you are going to get different versions of the same thing. That is exactly what one should expect to happen since different people perceive things differently and when they describe things, will naturally leave out details that they don't think are relative whereas someone else would include them and leave out different details for whatever reason.

    That is just how it works. If you don't think so then ask any attorneys or judges that you might be acquainted with. They'll quickly set you straight.

    Now... As for the differences.

    As I previously noted, Matthew appears to give a fairly bare bones accounting of it, as well as the rest of the resurrection accounts because he wants to emphasize the Great Commission. Very possibly, the one thing that folks interested in Christianity had already heard about was the Resurrection and since paper and ink were expensive he may very well have decided not to waste it going into detail about what others had already covered, and as I noted, he wanted to focus on the commission Jesus bestowed upon his followers, hence laying the foundation for their evangelizing.

    Both Matthew and Mark mention Mary Magdalene as going. They also mention a second Mary, who they described differently. This is likely because Matthew's audience may have been familiar with who she was so "the other Mary" sufficed, whereas Mark's audience needed a better identifier. This is supported by the belief among scholars that Matthew's original audience was likely a Jewish Christian one living within or close to Judea, which would certainly increase the chances that they were very familiar with this Mary, whereas Mark's audience were likely Roman and not Jewish (as evidenced by his constantly explaining things that a Jew would need no explanation for), so a little more detail explaining who the second Mary was might have been necessary.

    As for Salome, who only Mark mentions, this could either be due to Mark's audience being familiar with her or the reasons others don't mention her might simply because she doesn't play much of a role later on so no need to mention her and therefore explain who she is. Again, remember, this was a time when paper and ink were expensive so no need to waste it on what they regarded unimportant details.

    And while John only mentions Mary Magdalene, it is clear she was not alone because she uses the term "we" when describing events. So for whatever reason John wanted the spotlight on her. And even if he wasn't specifically trying to emphasize her role, it is hardly unusual to mention only the leader of the group when they do something. for instance, it is not uncommon to talk about how Caesar conquered Gaul, or Hannibal crossed the Alps. Obviously they did not do it alone and saying it that way is not contradicting the facts that they did so at the head of armies.

    And do you seriously think mention of "the women" is some sort of contradiction?

    And Peter was there with them later, he didn't accompany them at dawn to anoint the body (which IIRC was considered a woman's duty)




    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    He is cited in your article that you presumably posted to give some form of credence to your views.
    So?

    Leave a comment:

Related Threads

Collapse

Topics Statistics Last Post
Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
14 responses
42 views
0 likes
Last Post tabibito  
Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
21 responses
129 views
0 likes
Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
78 responses
411 views
0 likes
Last Post tabibito  
Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
45 responses
303 views
1 like
Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
Working...
X