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  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Absolutely rogue06. What on earth would Dr David S. Ariel who wrote the article I cited know about anything at all on these matters?

    After all he only graduated from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem with a BA in Jewish Thought in 1973 and received his M.A. and Ph.D. from Brandeis University in Jewish Studies.

    https://jewishheritagecenter.library.../resources/294

    From 1982 to 2007, Ariel served as the president of the Cleveland College of Jewish Studies (which later was renamed Siegal College and now is known as the Siegal Lifelong Learning program at Case Western Reserve University). From 2008 to 2014 he served as the president of the Oxford Centre for Hebrew and Jewish Studies, a Recognised Interdependent Centre (RIC) of Oxford University in England. Ariel later founded Ariel Learning, a Jewish learning organization, and taught courses at numerous synagogues, at the Me’ah and Kevah programs organized by Hebrew College, and various other educational, cultural, and religious centers.

    Ariel authored four books: Kabbalah: The Mystic Quest, Spiritual Judaism: Restoring Heart and Soul to Life, What Do Jews Believe? and The Mystic Quest: An Introduction to Jewish Mysticism
    .

    As such a renowned scholar yourself, you are perfectly correct in dismissing a nonentity such as Ariel.
    Thank you for a textbook example of credentialism

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  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    And relying on myjewishlearning.com to boot. While the largest online site, and the usual go-to site for google scholars, they are hardly known for their scholarship. IIRC, Adrift excoriated them quite nicely after Tass kept relying on them for information concerning Jewish beliefs on abortion.
    Absolutely rogue06. What on earth would Dr David S. Ariel who wrote the article I cited know about anything at all on these matters?

    After all he only graduated from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem with a BA in Jewish Thought in 1973 and received his M.A. and Ph.D. from Brandeis University in Jewish Studies.

    https://jewishheritagecenter.library.../resources/294

    From 1982 to 2007, Ariel served as the president of the Cleveland College of Jewish Studies (which later was renamed Siegal College and now is known as the Siegal Lifelong Learning program at Case Western Reserve University). From 2008 to 2014 he served as the president of the Oxford Centre for Hebrew and Jewish Studies, a Recognised Interdependent Centre (RIC) of Oxford University in England. Ariel later founded Ariel Learning, a Jewish learning organization, and taught courses at numerous synagogues, at the Me’ah and Kevah programs organized by Hebrew College, and various other educational, cultural, and religious centers.

    Ariel authored four books: Kabbalah: The Mystic Quest, Spiritual Judaism: Restoring Heart and Soul to Life, What Do Jews Believe? and The Mystic Quest: An Introduction to Jewish Mysticism
    .

    As such a renowned scholar yourself, you are perfectly correct in dismissing a nonentity such as Ariel.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    You do realize that you're relying on material written centuries after the time in question by the descendants of one view of Judaism current at the time of Christ who are just spitballing, yes?
    And relying on myjewishlearning.com to boot. While the largest online site, and the usual go-to site for google scholars, they are hardly known for their scholarship. IIRC, Adrift excoriated them quite nicely after Tass kept relying on them for information concerning Jewish beliefs on abortion.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Why would Jesus have practiced "Palestinian Judaism"? From what I understand, he was brought up in the Galilee region.

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  • tabibito
    replied
    Irrespective of contemporary theological beliefs the fact remains that in first century Jerusalem there was only one Passover each year. Furthermore, remarks regarding three separate calendars need to be considered in the light of what is actually known


    In what year (according to Res Gestae Divi Augusti 10) was Quirinius a consul, and who else was a consul at that time?

    10. By a senate decree my name was included in the Saliar Hymn, and it was sanctified by a law, both that I would be sacrosanct for ever, and that, as long as I would live, the tribunician power would be mine. I was unwilling to be high priest in the place of my living colleague; when the people offered me that priesthood which my father had, I refused it. And I received that priesthood, after several years, with the death of him who had occupied it since the opportunity of the civil disturbance, with a multitude flocking together out of all Italy to my election, so many as had never before been in Rome, when Publius Sulpicius (aka Quirinius) and Gaius Valgius were consuls (12 B.C.E.).
    Where was Quirinius active circa 12BCE?

    Source: Randall Price, The Stones Cry Out (Eugene, Ore.: Harvest House, 1997), 299

    While, inscriptional evidence reveals that there was more than one ruler with this name, a Quirinius within the time frame of Jesus’ birth has been found on a coin placing him as proconsul of Syria and Cilicia from 11 BC until after 4 BC.

    © Copyright Original Source



    So we have known facts placing Quirinius as a consul or proconsul at roughly the same time as Jesus’ birth, and speculation that a census conducted by Quirinius would not have affected Judaea. The assertion that the consul or proconsul in Syria and Cilicia would not have had such far reaching authority is nothing more than bare assertion. Even granted that the speculation is grounded in reasonable surmise, it remains speculation.

    What is actually known is that the Essene Calendar did not coincide with the Jewish liturgical calendar, and that the Essenes celebrated Passover according to their own calendar. What is actually known is that the Samaritan Jews celebrated Passover in accord with their own calendar, not the Jewish Calendar. What is actually known is that Passover could be celebrated in the second month, should a person be unable to celebrate Passover in the first month. What is actually known is that the Torah stipulates that the whole of Passover must be celebrated on the fourteenth day of the first month (with a postponement to the second month in exceptional circumstances permitted.)


    • A Roman census could not have obliged Joseph to travel to Bethlehem and for Mary to accompany him.
    • A Roman census could not be carried out at all in Palestine during the time of Herod.
    Agreed. It defies logic, and it would have defied direct experience and knowledge of the people of the time. The Romans did NOT have a habit of dislocating entire populations for the purpose of a census - it would defeat the purpose of a census. In short - Luke would have thoroughly discredited himself if his account had been interpreted the same way at the time of writing that it is now, .
    Last edited by tabibito; 06-24-2021, 10:23 PM.

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  • tabibito
    replied
    whether the inscription belongs to Quirinius or not, the last line need not mean that the man in question was legate of Syria twice; it merely means that he was legatus Augusti twice, on the second occasion in Syria.”[p.568] [My emphasis] See also Ronald Syme," Galatia and Pamphylia under Augustus: The Governorships of Piso, Quirinius, and Silvanus". Klio, Vol XXVII, 1934 pp. 122-148.
    I refer to recent discoveries, reported in 2019; you refer to writings dating from 1934. I write of a copy of the Res Gestae Divi Augusti discovered in Antioch, Pisidia (First scholastic translation in 1883 from distributed fragments: Theodor Mommsen); you write of a discovery in Tivoli, Italy: this one

    Tivoli Inscription.jpg

    With respect to the old chestnut of Quirinius holding the governorship of Syria twice that is now completely rejected, except within the realms of some Christian enthusiasts. It should also be noted that Mr Bryan Windle is neither a Classicist nor a historian. Furthermore the Greek ηγεμονευοντος [of being governor] means exactly what it says and the word carries a strong military connotation.
    :ROFL:

    Last edited by tabibito; 06-24-2021, 09:23 PM.

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  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    With respect to the old chestnut of Quirinius holding the governorship of Syria twice that is now completely rejected, except within the realms of some Christian enthusiasts. It should also be noted that Mr Bryan Windle is neither a Classicist nor a historian. Furthermore the Greek ηγεμονευοντος [of being governor] means exactly what it says and the word carries a strong military connotation.


    E Mary Smallwood deals with the census in her work The Jews Under Roman Rule published in Volume Twenty of Studies in Judaism in Late Anquity Ed J. Neusner, Brill, 1976. In that she writes:

    Tribute had been paid to Rome by the Jewish client kingdom ever since 63 BC in the form of a tax on the produce of the land, which had been regulated by Julius Caesar in 47. As a province Judaea continued to pay a land-tax {tributum soli). But annexation made the Jews automatically liable also for the tributum capitis, the personal tax paid by provincials, as well as for the vectigalia, the indirect taxes paid by the whole empire, of which the most important were the harbour dues (portoria). The first Roman administrative act in the new province was therefore the holding of a census (a land-survey as well as a count of the population) in order to obtain the accurate information about its manpower and financial resources needed for assessing its tax capability. For this purpose Augustus instructed the newly appointed legate of Syria, P. Sulpicius Quirinius, who had just conducted a census in his own province, to go to Judaea to organize the country as a province and in particular to take a census [...] Its outcome was the imposition of the tributum capitis in the form, apparently, of a flat-rate tax which by c. 30 was one Roman denarius per head, the "tribute-money" of the Gospels.[pp.150, 151]

    In Appendix E of the same work Smallwood discusses the fragment of an acephalous cursus inscription ILS 918 ending [legatus pr. pr.] divi Augusti iterum Syriam et Ph[oenicen optinuit].

    [r]egem, qua redacta in pot[estatem] imp. Caesaris
    Augusti populique Romani senatu[s dis immortalibus]
    supplicationes binas ob res prosp[ere gestas et]
    ipsi ornamenta triumph[alia decrevit];
    pro consul. Asiam provinciam op[tinuit; legatus pr. pr.]
    divi Augusti iterum Syriam et Ph[oenicen optinuit].

    The Latin term iterum appearing in the crucial line was interpreted to mean that when Quirinius went to govern Syria in 6 CE it was his second tenure of that post and a previous “first governship of Syria” was postulated for him. [Mommsen, 1883].

    Smallwood continues, “ Quirinius certainly held a military post in the East during the last decade or so B.C., when he directed the war against the Homanades in Cilicia—Tac, A. iii, 48, 2; Str. Xii, 6, 5. However, the attribution of ILS918 to Quirinius,, has been doubted [...] whoever is the man commemorated, iteration of the chief military command in the East would be unparalleled, and improbable in itself, and the important point here is that made by R. Syme: whether the inscription belongs to Quirinius or not, the last line need not mean that the man in question was legate of Syria twice; it merely means that he was legatus Augusti twice, on the second occasion in Syria.”[p.568] [My emphasis] See also Ronald Syme," Galatia and Pamphylia under Augustus: The Governorships of Piso, Quirinius, and Silvanus". Klio, Vol XXVII, 1934 pp. 122-148.

    She later notes:

    If Quirinius' "first governorship of Syria" is rejected, he conducted the Homanadensian war in some other capacity. He may have had a special, purely military command; he may have been proconsul of Asia or legate of Pamphylia; more probably he was legate of Galatia and Pamphylia together. But a military command in Asia Minor cannot credibly be supposed to have given Quirinius civil authority over a client kingdom at some distance from his theatre of operations (authority which a non-Roman, non-technical writer like Luke could misinterpret as meaning that he was legate of Syria); nor is it likely that his campaigns would have given him time or opportunity to organize a census there. Furthermore, though the war may have occurred before Herod's death, it may equally well be dated immediately after it. To connect Quirinius convincingly with any census in Judaea before that which he directed in A.D.6. therefore seems to be a forlorn hope. [pp. 568,569]

    In his “The Census of Luke as an Apologetic Device” in Studies in New Testament and early Christian literature; essays in honour of Allen P. Wikren, 1972, Brill. pp.144-160] Horst H Moehring concludes that the attempts to reconcile the Lucan birth narrative and the census with the birth narrative in Matthew have proved “problematic” and despite various attempts to do so the two accounts cannot be “brought into agreement with one another”. He continues:

    The arguments against the Lucan account were best summarised by Schürer and they deserve to be mentioned again at this point.
    • History, except for the passage in Luke, knows nothing of a general census throughout the Roman Empire during the reign of Augustus.
    • A Roman census could not have obliged Joseph to travel to Bethlehem and for Mary to accompany him.
    • A Roman census could not be carried out at all in Palestine during the time of Herod.
    • Josephus knows nothing of a Roman census in Palestine at the time of Herod; on the contrary, he speaks of the census in AD 7 as something new and unheard of.
    • A census held under Quirinius could not fall into the time of Herod, since during Herod’s lifetime Quirinius was never governor of Syria.
    This is a formidable list of problems and no one has ever come close to solving all of them.
    [...]

    The historical inaccuracy of the passage which claims to be historical but stands so isolated in the midst of legendary materials demands a concrete and specific reason for its inclusion in the gospel [...] The time at which the reference to the census and its inclusion in the gospel would have been of greatest concern, is of course the date of the composition of the gospel. A significant number of scholars today accept as the date for the composition of the third gospel a period between 70 and 90, that is after the war of 66-70. It is almost universally agreed, furthermore, that Luke and Acts were meant to be read as one comprehensive work. One of the main themes of this composition is the attempt to show “the political innocence of Jesus in the eyes of the Romans, above all, of Pilate...Luke prepares the defence of the Christians against political accusations in Acts. Also in connection with this political line the relation of Jesus’ history with general history appears”*. This apologetic concern of both Luke and Acts would be seriously jeopardised if the books included passages which were meant to establish an intimate relationship between Jesus or the Christian community and the rebel movement of the Zealots. It seems to have been widely accepted that the origins of this rebel movement were somehow connected with the census taken by Quirinius in AD 6-7. At exactly this point, Luke found the most suitable starting point for the documentation of the thesis that at no time is the Christian movement, even in the person of its founder, to constitute a danger to the security of the Roman Empire. For this reason it is so important for Luke that the order for the census be issued by the highest authority of the Empire itself. This allows him to show the obedience of Joseph who, in contrast to the nationalist fanatics, obeys this order. Joseph’s obedience is not merely passive: he subjects himself and Mary to great hardship in order to fulfil his civic duty. [pp.146, 147,158,159]


    *W G Kummel, Introduction to the New Testament. 1973, Quelle & Meyer pp. 140,141.

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  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    The various posts on the dating of the crucifixion and Passover for the year of Jesus’ execution all exhibit a marked degree of special pleading.

    Irrespective of contemporary theological beliefs the fact remains that in first century Jerusalem there was only one Passover each year. Furthermore, remarks regarding three separate calendars need to be considered in the light of what is actually known, rather than the conjecture of the individual premised on various gospel verses.

    Emil Schürer gives detailed accounts of all the aspects of festivals including Passover, calendars, and computation in Volume 1 of The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ 175 BC-135 AD [Revised and Edited by Geza Vermes, Fergus Millar, Matthew Black ]and notes that scientifically exact calendars developed in different nations at different historical periods and, Bloomsbury, 1973] noting that the Jewish months continued as all months of various nations were by origin, genuine lunar months. The issues concerning twelve lunar months only amounting 354 days [excluding additional hours, minutes, and seconds] while a solar year comprises 365 days [excluding same] led to a difference of 10 days and 21 hours. In order to compensate for this difference, at least once in every third year, and sometimes in the second, one month needed to be intercalated. That every nineteen years the courses of the sun and moon coincide almost exactly was also well known to the Babylonians and cuneiform inscriptions are thought to show that they regularly employed a nineteen year intercalary cycle as far back as the eighth century BCE. This nineteen year cycle was in use in the Arsacid kingdom in the first centuries BCE and CE as has been shown by coins from the years 287, 317, and 390 of the Seleucid era appearing as intercalary years [see p.588-589]

    However, how far the Jews of the intertestamental era had advanced in such matters is unclear. It would appear they had some knowledge of such matters but at the time of Jesus in the early first century they had no fixed calendar, and on the basis of observation intercalated one month in the spring of the third or second year in accordance with the rule that the Passover must fall after the vernal equinox.

    E.J. Bickerman in his work Chronology of the Ancient World, Cornell University Press, 1968 also comments on the Mosaic law being bound to the beginning of a new month to a new crescent and the liturgical year of Jerusalem depended on barley ripening [Leviticus 23.10, Exodus 12.2]. However, the Babylonian precalculated calendar would have repeatedly disagreed with the sighting of a new moon in Jerusalem and crop growth in Judaea. This led to the religious calendar of Jerusalem becoming separate from civil reckoning with months and days inserted at convenience. While we have no precise date for when this new system was established we do know that the Qumran community refused to accept it and instead used their own calendar for “the proper reckoning of the time” of festivals. It is therefore clear that the manipulated Temple calendar was already in use in the first century BCE. Bickerman therefore contends that it is impossible to deduce the date of the Passover or crucifixion from any scheme of fixed calendars. He points out that nowhere in the entire New Testament is any calendar date, day, or month, even a month name provided. [pp. 26,27].

    Paul Winter in his On The Trial of Jesus of Nazareth, Studia Judaica, Forshungen zur Wissenschaft des Judentums, E L Ehrlich, Basel, Walter de Gruyter & Co, Berlin, 1961 makes the following comments noting that as far as he is aware the earliest chronological notice dealing with the death of Jesus occurs in Clement of Alexandria’s Stromateis I [chapter xxi]. In this Clement dates the crucifixion to 42 years and 3 months before the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. If the reference to three months [υήνες γ] is understood “to indicate exactly three months of the Jewish calendar — of any Jewish calendar — the day of Jesus’ crucifixion would be designated as coinciding neither with the 14th nor the 15th Nisan, but with the ninth day of that month.” [p. 73 “Pilate in History and Christian Tradition”]

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  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...ge-in-judaism/

    The Arrival of the Messiah


    The rabbis speculated on the conditions under which the Messiah was likely to appear.

    He will not arrive on the Sabbath, since that would require people to violate the Sabbath in welcoming him [Babylonian Talmud Pesahim 13a]. [The prophet] Elijah [who is supposed to usher in the messianic age] will arrive no later in the week than Thursday, leaving room for the Messiah to arrive by Friday. Elijah will announce the arrival of the Messiah from Mount Carmel in the Land of Israel [Jerusalem Talmud Pesahim 3:6].

    Many rabbis believed that the Messiah would arrive suddenly on the eve of Passover, the first redemption, which serves as a model of the final redemption [Mekilta de-Rabbi Ishmael, Pischa 14].

    Corruption and Degradation Will Precede Redemption


    One statement from the time of the rabbis describes the era leading up to the Messiah in the darkest terms of societal corruption:

    “In the footsteps of the Messiah, arrogance [chutzpah] will increase; prices will rise; grapes will be abundant but wine will be costly; the government will turn into heresy; and there will be no reproach. The meeting place [of scholars] will become a bordello; the Galilee will be destroyed; the highland will lie desolate; the border people will wander from city to city and none will show them compassion; the wisdom of authors will stink; sin‑fearing people will be detested; truth will be missing; young men will humiliate the elderly; the elderly will stand while the young sit; sons will revile their fathers; daughters will strike their mothers, brides will strike their mothers‑in‑law; and a man’s enemies will take over his house. The face of the generation is like the face of a dog! Sons have no shame in front of their fathers; and on whom can one depend? Only upon our father in heaven [Sotah 9:15].”

    This era will be characterized by God’s war against Gog and Magog and other catastrophic events. Another statement, which may date from the time of the Hadrianic persecutions (132‑35 C.E.), offers the dark assessment that the Messiah will arrive in a period when Jews collaborate with their enemies, Torah learning disappears, poverty increases, and religious despair deepens:


    You can read the rest of that text here https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...ge-in-judaism/
    You do realize that you're relying on material written centuries after the time in question by the descendants of one view of Judaism current at the time of Christ who are just spitballing, yes?

    That Paul founded a new religion is widely accepted.
    Academic opinion is what was under discussion, not the views of the ordinary Joe in the street.

    On the contrary, there are academics who hold/held religious beliefs who are/were of that opinion. For example, S G F Brandon [died 1971] was an Anglican cleric and an army chaplain during WW2. John Dominic Crossan still holds to a religious view, albeit some may not regard his beliefs as "true" Christianity. Hyam Maccoby [died 2004] was a Rabbinic scholar..
    That you have to cherry-pick and even then qualify your examples speaks volumes.
    What Paul was propounding was not the Palestinian Judaism as practised by Jesus of Nazareth and his disciples.
    If you'd read the canonical gospels, you'd understand that Jesus (and, by extension, his disciples) tended to be rather antagonistic to the Palestinian Judaisms of his day.
    Well of course the canonical gospels take that view. They are written under the influence of Paul's views and Paul rejected Judaism.
    I'd be interested to know just what basis you have for asserting that Jesus of Nazareth and his disciples practiced a Palestinian Judaism not propounded by Paul, then. Sources other than the canonical gospels are much later and farther from Palestinian Judaism (as far as we can discern it) than they are.
    It was something totally new that was acceptable and intelligible to the Graeco-Roman world.
    Balderdash.
    For Paul the death of Jesus was a transcendent and spiritual event. It was part of a divine plan. The demonic powers in the world, unaware that this had all been predestined by God at the beginning of time, were responsible for the crucifixion of a supernatural "Lord of Glory" [I Corinthians 2.6-8]. Such a construct is a very long way from an ascetic Galilean Jewish teacher preaching of the End Times to his fellow Jews and telling them to repent.
    Such a construct is a very long way from Paul's teachings, too. Paul wrote rather more than 1 Corinthians 2.6-8. Taking a distorted view of Paul's teachings and using that to filter out "Pauline" influences on the gospels isn't going to result in a very accurate picture of the teachings of Jesus.
    Jesus wasn't a slave. From where do you get that impression?
    I'm well aware of that. Crucifixion was the method used for executing slaves. As Bart Ehrman has said, [cite]Low life criminals would include, for example, slaves who had escaped from their masters and committed a crime. If caught, a slave could be crucified. There were two reasons they were subjected to such a tortuous, slow, and humiliating death. They were receiving the “ultimate” punishment for their crime and, possibly more important, they were being used as a spectacle to warn any other slave who was thinking about escaping or committing crimes what could happen to *them*.?[/cite] Since Jesus was crucified, that put him on par with slaves.
    Gentiles who were familiar with the demi-gods of various ancient religions and cults and who had no preconceived ideas about "Messiah" meaning the Anointed King of Israel would, no doubt, have found little difficulty in thinking of the "Christos" as a divine being or an incarnate god.
    Interesting that you felt the need to break my argument up in order to attack it. No self-respecting Greco-Roman was going to follow someone executed as a slave. He was dead! Everybody knows that dead people don't come back to life. This was, after all, a culture in which a popular epitaph was "Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo".

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  • tabibito
    replied
    I threw this table together. If anyone suggests corrections or considers that additional information should be added, I'll work on it some more.

    EVENTS OF THE DAY OF CHRIST'S EXECUTION: SUNSET TO THE TRIAL BEFORE PILATE
    Matt Mark Luke John
    30? 33?yy01mm14dd (Not a Sabbath)
    Before the Passover, Jesus knew that his time was at hand 13:1
    Before the Passover, Judas arranges to betray Jesus 26:14-16 14:10-11 22:4 - 6
    Before the meal, Judas is already under the Devil’s influence to betray Jesus 22:3 13:2
    30? 33?yy01mm14ddEVENING
    .(a) 1st Day of Unleavened Bread (b) Day of Preparation (c) The day when the Passover must be sacrificed. 26:17 (a) 14:12 (a) 22:7 (a, c)
    Sacrifice the Passover 14:12
    Disciples Prepare for the Passover (meal) 26:19 14:16 22:8 - 13
    Jesus arrives late in the evening (οψιας) 14:17
    Jesus arrives accompanied by the twelve 14:17
    30? 33?yy01mm14ddNIGHT
    The meal (No celebration of Passover has another meal between Sacrifice and the Passover meal) 26:20 14:18 22:14
    Jesus washes the disciples’ feet 13:4 - 12
    Jesus declares that one disciple is a traitor (Judas) 26:21 14:18 22:20 13:21
    Who is the traitor? “not I” 26:22 14:19 22:23
    “Woe to him by whom the Son of Man is betrayed” 26:24 14:21 22:22
    Jesus responds to Judas’ denial ((“yes, you”)) 26:25
    Satan enters Judas’ heart 13:27
    “What you do, do quickly.” 13:27
    Judas leaves the meal 13:31
    The bread is Jesus’ body 26:26 14:22
    The bread/body, “given for you” 22:19
    The wine is Jesus’ “blood of the new covenant” 26:28 14:24 22:20
    Depart for the Mount of Olives 26:30 14:26 22:39
    “Sheep will be scattered,” 26:31 14:27
    The disciples deny that they will resile 26: 35 14: 31
    Peter’s denies that he will resile 26:33 - 35 14: 29 - 31
    Peter claims that he will lay down his life for Jesus 26: 35 14: 31 22:33 13:37
    Jesus contradicts Peter 22:34 13:38
    Leaves for the garden, crossing the Kidron 18:1
    Arrive Gethsemane 26:36 14:32 22:40
    Jesus divides the group, remains with Peter, James, John 26:36 14:32
    Jesus withdraws from the group 22:41
    Jesus prays “let this cup pass from me,” 26:37 14:36 22:42
    Judas betrays Jesus 26: 47-50 14:45 22:47 18: 3 - 9
    The High Priest’s slave injured by a disciple 26:51 14:47 22:50 18:10
    The disciple identified as Peter 18:10
    Jesus addresses the group arresting him 26:55 14:48- 49 22:52 - 53
    The disciples flee 26:56 14:50- 52
    Jesus led first to Annas 18:13
    Annas sends Jesus on to Caiaphas 18:24
    Jesus brought before Caiaphas, scribes, elders 26:57 14:53 22:54
    Attempts to find testimony against Jesus fail 14:55-59
    Caiaphas/High_Priest demands that Jesus declare himself – Is he or is he not God’s anointed, son of God? 26:63 14:61
    Jesus affirms that he is 26:64 14:62
    High Priest declares Jesus claim blasphemy 26:65 14:64
    Peter disavows Jesus 26: 69-75 14: 66-72 22:55 - 61 18:25 -27
    30? 33?yy01mm14ddMORNING
    When it was day Jesus taken to council chambers 22:66
    Chief priests and elders consult 15:1
    Council asks, “Are you the son of God?” 22:70
    Jesus affirms 22:70
    Chief priests and elders condemn Jesus 27:1
    They bind Jesus and take him before the governor/Pilate 27:2 15:1 23:1 18:28
    Chief Priests do not enter the praetorium (ritual purity) 18:28
    JESUS BEFORE THE GOVERNOR (PILATE)
    Pilate questions Jesus in the Praetorium 18:33
    Governor (Pilate) asks, “Are you king of the Jews?” 27:11 15:2 23:3 18:33 -37
    Jesus affirms 27:11 15:2 23:3 18:37
    Chief priests or elders accuse Jesus 27:12 15:3
    Jesus does not respond to the allegations 27:12 15:4*
    Governor identified as Pilate 27:13 15:2
    Pilate is (quite) amazed 27:14 15:5
    Hanko.jpg

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  • tabibito
    replied
    When was Jesus born? During the reign of Herod the Great or during the census of Quirinius?
    Given that the word, ηγεμονευοντος, used by Luke when referring to Quirinius, is not restricted to the meaning of "governor," but can apply to anyone in a command position, there is no evidence that Luke might have been mistaken: even if there was no evidence of Quirinius' being a consul and active in Syria around the time of Christ's birth.

    A monument dating from 12 BCE found in Antioch, Pisidia, gives adequate evidence that Quirinius was in fact a consul in 12 BCE, and further evidence shows that he was active in Syria at that time.

    Source: Augustus. Res Gestae Divi Augusti10 [URL="https://www.livius.org/sources/content/augustus-res-gestae/

    [/URL] I [Augustus] accepted that sacred office [of Pontifex Maximus] when he at last was dead who, taking advantage of a time of civil disturbance, had seized it for himself, [i.e., Lepidus.] such a multitude from all Italy assembling for my election, in the consulship of Publius Sulpicius* and Gaius Valgius,[12 BCE.] as is never recorded to have been in Rome before.

    © Copyright Original Source



    *Publius Sulpicius: aka Quirinius


    Source: Bryan Windle. “Quirinius: An Archaeological Biography.” Bible Archaeology Report. ([URL="https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2019/12/19/quirinius-an-archaeological-biography/"

    https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2...cal-biography/[/URL]), no pages.]“The only certain dates in the life of Quirinius are his consulship in B.C. 12, his second government of Syria beginning in A.D. 6, and his prosecution of his former wife, Domitia Lepida in A.D. 20 and his death and public funeral in A.D. 21.”16 In the years since he penned those words, no significant discovery has been made that positively dates other events in Quirinius’s life. The only other major event that is know is his role in Syria leading the war against the Homonadenses sometime between 12 BC and 6 AD.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Last edited by tabibito; 06-23-2021, 12:36 PM.

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  • tabibito
    replied
    Faber

    Rules of conduct for trials re a capital crime, IIRC, were formulated by Hillel II, long after the events described in the Bible. Also, the calendar preventing Sabbaths from occurring on consecutive days was formulated by Hillel II. The rule shows that the weekly Sabbath is not the only day referred to as a Sabbath - two Saturdays cannot fall on consecutive days: the deutero-Sabbaths are also referred to simply as Sabbaths. Hillel II's calendar is not perfect: the last time that Passover (by the temple liturgy) and the weekly Sabbath occurred on consecutive days was in 2008. The next is due in three hundred years or so.
    Samaritan Jews do not adjust the calendar to prevent Sabbaths from occurring on consecutive days.

    With regard to the day of the week for Christ's execution, two traditions are relevant - Palm Sunday: the day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem five days before the Passover of the Jews: not the Passover of the Essenes, nor that of the Samaritans: thus, a minimum of three individual celebrations of Passover in first century Judea. Jesus, according to John, arrived in Bethany six days before Passover. He was executed on the day before Passover, which is five days after his arrival in Bethany.

    According to Luke's report (24:21) the day of Jesus' resurrection was three days after his execution. The timetable below makes it clear that Palm Sunday and Execution on Friday are mutually exclusive.

    Count of days relative to Christ's Execution.

    -5 Sat - Arrive Bethany
    -4 Sun - Palm Sunday
    -3 Mon
    -2 Tue - Jesus says "after two days is the Passover." (Matthew 26:2) Mark records "after two days ..." without attribution. according to some interpretations.
    -1 Wed - as above, according to alternative interpretations.
    0. Thurs - the day of execution
    +1 Fri - Passover (of the Jews)
    +2 Sat
    +3 Sun - Resurrection.

    Argument that "three days" and "third day" are inclusive falls flat. The terms are ambiguous, sometimes referring to "the third day of" (inclusive) sometimes referring to the "third day since.after.before" et al (exclusive) without anything explicit indicating which is meant (High context language: the reader is expected to use a bit of nous). The explicit designations that are provided by the Biblical authors show "before" and "after:" It should not need saying (but this is a theological issue) that 1 day before Friday is not Friday, one day after Friday is not Friday.
    Last edited by tabibito; 06-22-2021, 11:50 PM.

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  • Faber
    replied
    Among the thousands of fragments found in the caves around Qumran, one fragment in particular, given the designation 4Q321, gives more information on the calendar used by the Essenes. It contains twelve months, unnamed but referred to as the first month, the second month, etc. The third, sixth, ninth and twelfth months have 31 days; the other months have 30 days. 364 days total; 52 weeks. The first month corresponds roughly with Nisan, the first month of the Lunar Calendar. It begins every year on a Tuesday evening at sunset. The first day of the first month thus falls on Wednesday every year. Passover is on the 15th day of the first month, also beginning on Tuesday at sunset and continuing to Wednesday at sunset. Waiving of the barley sheaves, instead of being the Sunday immediately after Passover, is on Sunday, the 26th day of the first month, eleven days after Passover. The Festival of the First Fruits is on Sunday, the 15th day of the third month, sixty days after Passover. The Feast of Trumpets is on Wednesday, the first day of the seventh month. The Day of Atonement is on Friday, the 10th day of the seventh month. The Feast of Tabernacles is eight days, beginning on Wednesday, the 15 day of the seventh month, and continuing to the following Wednesday. It was intended to be a perpetual calendar, with none of the feasts days (except the fourth day of Tabernacles) falling on the Sabbath.

    Other documents from the caves made reference to the Jubilee calendar. 4Q320 and 4Q328 give the schedule for the several orders of priests for their weekly service in the temple in accordance with the Jubilee calendar. 4Q326 lists the days of the Sabbaths, Passover and other feast days.

    Annie Jaubert (1912-1980) was a French Bible scholar known for her research on the calendrical teachings of the Hebrew Bible and other ancient Hebrew literature. She offered a solution to the conflicting chronologies of the Passover in the four Gospels.

    In conclusion: it is certain that, at the beginning of the first century, A.D., there existed two liturgical calendars. In one of these the feasts were assigned to days of the lunar month; this was the official calendar, about which we can find information in later rabbinical Judaism. In the second, the feasts always fell on fixed days of the week. The character of this calendar may now be discovered in contemporary Jewish sources. It is witnessed only in its Jubilees-Qumran type; but it is probable that it also existed in modified forms which could have either preserved an intermediary stage of the calendar's development or attempted a certain compromise with the official reckoning. [Annie Jaubert; The Date of the Last Supper. French orig. 1957. Translated by Isaac Rafferty. (Staten Island, NY: Alba House, 1965), 52]
    What is interesting is that on this calendar Passover always fell on a Wednesday, two weeks after the spring equinox. In AD 30 the spring equinox took place on Wednesday, March 22 (Julian calendar), just before midnight, local Jerusalem time. If the Essene calendar began the day before, Tuesday March 21 at sunset and continued through Wednesday March 22 until sunset, then the Passover feast according to the calendars of the Essenes, the Damascus Document, the Book of Jubilees and the First Book of Enoch would have taken place on Tuesday night, April 5, the very night that Jesus and the disciples held their Passover Seder if we adhere to the chronology in the Gospel According to Matthew and allow three days for the trial of Jesus and Herod’s involvement. The very same day that the Didiscalia Apostolorum and Epiphanius’s Panarion say it took place.

    I'm probably notorious for objecting to some commonly accepted interpretation held by the vast majority of Christians. One more example would be the chronology of events which took place during Holy Week. Let me start out by stating that I also disagree with a certain individual who pops up on numerous Christian websites challenging the commonly held date of the crucifixion of Jesus. On that I agree with the majority that Jesus was Crucified on Friday.

    Some of the Issues that make me question the usual chronology:

    (1) There are issues about how many participated in the Passover sacrifice. Tacitus (Historiae (Histories), V.13) states that the number of men and women, of every age, at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem, was 600,000. This would mean somewhere from 30,000 to 60,000 Passover sacrifices.

    Josephus wrote,
    That the city could contain so many is clear from the count taken under Cestius. For he, being anxious to convince Nero, who held the nation in contempt, of the city’s strength, instructed the chief priests, if by any means possible, to take a census of the population. Accordingly, on the occasion of the feast called Passover, at which they sacrifice from the ninth to the eleventh hour, and a little fraternity, as it were, gathers round each sacrifice, of not fewer than ten persons (feasting alone not being permitted), while the companies often include as many as twenty, the victims were counted and amounted to two hundred and fifty-five thousand six hundred; allowing an average of ten diners to each victim, we obtain a total of two million seven hundred thousand, all pure and holy. (Josephus, War, Book 6 (Niese, 6:422-26; Whiston, vi.9.3), trans. by H. St. John, Thackeray, M.A. Josephus, with an English Translation In Nine Volumes, Vol. III (The Jewish War, Books IV-VII). (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1961) 497, 499. Thackeray’s translation of the number 255,600 is consistent with the Greek text on the Perseus Collection website. Whiston, as well as a translation by Rev. Robert Traill, D.D., M.R.I.A., (The Jewish War of Flavius Josephus: A New Translation, Vol. II, The Jewish War, Books 3-7. (London: Houlston and Stoneman, Paternoster Row, 1851) 208) give the number of victims as 256,500. Traill adds a note on page clxi that one or two Greek manuscripts read 255,600.)
    But 256,500 sacrifices in three hours? That’s 24 sacrifices per second! Almost the frequency of the first key (A0) on a piano! That simply couldn't be done within the few hours during which the Passover sacrifices took place. In contrast, Tractate Pesachim, folio 64a describes a passover in which all the sacrifices were divided into three groups, the last of which was well less than capacity.

    (2) The Sanhedrin did not judge capital cases on the day in which they were heard and witnesses were brought forward. It had to wait until the next day, so that the Sanhedrin had time to think. Also, capital cases were not heard on the day immediately before a shabbat. The Talmud goes on to explain that the second day of the trial had to immediately follow the first day, else the facts of the trial will no longer be fresh in the minds of the judges. But there’s another issue: The execution is supposed to take place on the second day, but cannot take place on a Sabbath day or on a festival day. Therefore the first day of the trial cannot take place on the day immediately before a Sabbath day or a festival day.

    (3) The Synoptic Gospels clearly describe the Last Supper as a Passover seder. Yet John's Gospel clearly does NOT, and clearly states that the Passover which the priest held took place later. How many days later is the issue that I take here.

    (4) According to the Didaskalia,
    And the priests and the elders (S. + considered and) commanded (S. + and decreed) that they should keep the feast with haste, that they might take Him without tumult; for the people of Jerusalem were occupied in the sacrifice and the eating of the Passover, and all the people from without had not yet come, because they deceived them [about] the days, that they might be reproved before God that they were greatly mistaken in everything. So they anticipated and kept the Passover three days earlier, in the eleventh of the moon on Tuesday; for they said, because that all the people go astray after Him, now that we have the opportunity to take Him; and then when all the people have come, we will kill Him before all men for His fault, and this will be known openly, and all the people will turn from after Him. Thus in the night (S. + when Wednesday dawned) Judas delivered up our Lord, but they had given the reward to Judas when he covenanted with them (S. + on the tenth of the moon) on Monday. (Margaret Dunlop Gibson M.R.A.S.; LL.D., trans.; Didascalia Apostolorum, (St Andrews); The Didascalia Apostolorum in English. S. + refers to added text in the Syrian version which didn’t appear in the Latin version.) (London; C. J. Clay and Sons; Cambridge University Press Warehouse; Ave Maria Lane; 1903) 94)
    (5) The number of events which took place within a two hour span: If we hold to a traditional Thursday night seder, then this is the order in which the events on Friday morning took place:

    ∙ Early in the morning, after the morning Tamid sacrifice, the Sanhedrin took counsel to deliver Jesus to Pilate. The Tamid ceremony began at sunrise and lasted an hour. This is around 7 AM local time, or an hour after sunrise.

    ∙ Early in the morning, Jesus was taken to the Hall of Judgment to be tried by Pilate. The Jews addressed Pilate outside the Hall of Judgment because they felt that entering the chambers of a gentile would disqualify them from observing the Passover.

    ∙ Pilate questioned Jesus inside the Hall of Judgment; found no fault in Jesus.

    ∙ Pilate returned to the Sanhedrin outside the Hall of Judgment. Pilate learned that Jesus was from Galilee, sent Jesus to Herod Antipas.

    ∙ Herod Antipas questioned Jesus; chief priests accused Him before Herod. Herod’s guards mocked Jesus; Jesus was sent back to Pilate.

    ∙ Pilate summoned the rulers, offered to release Jesus; They wanted Barabbas released instead. They demanded that Jesus be crucified. Pilate submitted to their demand.

    ∙ Jesus was scourged, then taken to the Praetorium where He was mocked by the Roman soldiers.

    ∙ Either Jesus or Simon of Cyrene was forced to carry Jesus’s cross. Tradition states that Simon was forced to drag the cross after Jesus was no longer able. Not knowing the place of origin, and debating the actual location of Calvary (Cranion, or Golgotha), we can only estimate that somebody dragged a three-hundred-pound cross for the length of one or two thousand feet. The soldiers took Him to Golgotha, outside the gates of the city.

    ∙ Jesus spoke to the lamenting women.

    ∙ At the third hour (9 AM) Jesus was crucified. (Mark 15:25)

    All this in only two hours???

    I know, I've said too much. I'll shut up now.
    Last edited by Faber; 06-22-2021, 08:45 PM.

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  • tabibito
    replied
    When does the feast of unleavened bread begin?
    Leviticus 23:5 ‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD’S Passover. 6 ‘Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.

    Which part of Passover is to be conducted on the 14th day of the first month?
    Numbers 9: 2 “Now, let the sons of Israel observe the Passover at its appointed time. 3 “On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall observe it at its appointed time; you shall observe it according to all its statutes and according to all its ordinances.”

    If those do not make it clear, perhaps this will disambiguate.
    Numbers 28:16 ‘Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the LORD’S Passover. 17 ‘On the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days.
    And then there is Ezra 6:19-22

    So then primary sources are adequate to demonstrate that there is no difficulty with celebrating Passover at different times on the same day. The Torah shows that Passover – in full – is to be celebrated on the fourteenth day of the first month, just as the Samaritan Jews today claim [and Bayit Israel/Beta Israel, Ethiopia]. The gospels show that Jesus and the disciples observed the Passover on the fourteenth day of the first month, “according to all its statutes” as outlined by the Torah. There is no viable argument that Jesus and the disciples somehow violated the rules by celebrating the Passover in the first few hours of Nisan 14. Nor can any viable argument be made that only one celebration of Passover existed in Israel during the first century CE. The Essenes celebrated Passover on the 14th day of the first month in a fashion similar to the temple observance, BUT according to their own calendar. The fourteenth of the first month, according to that calendar, always fell on a Tuesday.

    Adequate information on the Essene Calendar is not hard to find:
    Roger T. Beckwith. “The Perpetual Calendar of the Dead Sea Scrolls.” Calendar and Chronology, Jewish and Christian, 94: https://brill.com/view/book/9789004332874/BP000006.xml

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  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    At least three relevant calendars were in play during the first century: the Temple calendar, the Essene Calendar, and the Samaritan calendar - each with its own dating system, which often resulted in three Passover celebrations in the one year. The Roman and Egyptian calendars were not relevant to liturgical practices. Preparation [day] is Nisan 14 in the Temple Liturgical Calendar, with the (Festival of) Unleavened commencing on that day. In the Torah, the 14th is Passover, and the first day of the festival of Unleavened is the 15th. In both calendars, Nisan 14 is NOT a Sabbath, but Nisan 15 is a (deutero) Sabbath. According to all the gospels, Pilate interrogated Jesus during the morning of the "Day of Preparation." Accounts vary wrt the exact time, whether early or late morning. Jesus was buried shortly before sunset on that same day. So

    John
    19:14, and it was about the sixth hour of the Passover's Preparation Day. He (Pilate) says to the Jews, "Behold! Your king."
    19:31, So then, because it was Preparation Day, the Jews petitioned Pilate {so ⇒ to allow} that their legs might be broken and {they ⇒ their bodies} removed, so that {the bodies ⇒ they} would not remain on the crosses on the Sabbath, because that Sabbath Day was great.
    19:42, So then, due to the Preparation of the Jews and because the tomb was nearby, there they put Jesus. [temple observant Jews and Essenes had a Preparation Day, Torah observant Jews did (and do) not.]

    Luke
    22:7 But then came the first day of Unleavened, on which it is necessary to sacrifice the Passover. (In the Torah, the first day of Unleavened is the day after the mandated day of Passover sacrifice.)
    23:54 And that day was the Preparation, with the Sabbath about to begin.

    Mark
    15:42 And because it was already late on Preparation Day, that is, Sabbath Eve. [("Eve" meaning "the day before," as; Christmas Eve is (all of) December 24th.)]
    14:12 And on the first day of the unleavened, whilst they were sacrificing the Passover, his disciples say to him, “Where do you desire that we go to prepare, so that we might eat the Passover?”

    Matthew

    26:17 On the first day of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus, saying to him, "Where do you prefer that we prepare, for you to eat the Passover?"
    27:62 On the next day, that is, after the Preparation, the chief priests and pharisees gathered before Pilate. (Christ was interred very late on the day of Preparation, which ends at [nominally] 6:00 pm; this meeting probably happened soon after).


    Sacrifice made on the day of Preparation, then the night of Christ's arrest and interrogation, then the daylight hours when Christ was on trial before the Sanhedrin, then before Pilate, then he was crucified and died. And at his burial it is still the day of Preparation. Every one of the gospel authors records the day of Jesus' burial as the Day of Preparation. Those that record the sacrifice of the Passover, record it as occurring on the day of Preparation.

    In accord with the procedures of Torah, Jesus and the disciples sacrificed the Passover early (shortly after 6:00 pm) on the day that the Passover must be sacrificed, and ate the meal that night. Less than 18 hours later that same day, Jesus was on trial before Pilate: By midday he had been crucified. The temple adherent Jews were to begin their own sacrifice for Passover about three hours later.
    Some sources would be useful.

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