Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Ancient Sources: History and Theology.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    And you think that is a record of an earthquake? ... 可哀そうな

    To repeat my earlier post (#186)

    Qualified by context: αγγελος γαρ κυριου καταβας εξ ουρανου προσελθων απεκυλισεν τον λιθον for an angel of the Lord having descended from heaven, having arrived, rolled away the stone…”

    Do you perhaps think that the addition of accents changes the meaning?
    Well certainly rogue06 is of that opinion:


    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    As I noted, the region is prone to seismic activity thanks to the proximity of the Dead Sea Rift Valley. In his Patterns of Seismic Sequences in the Levant -- Interpretation of Historical Seismicity Amos Salamon reveals that the area experiences tremors there on a virtually yearly basis. And many are large scale. IIRC, Josephus, in his Jewish War, even mentioned one which hit Judea resulting in tens of thousands of deaths. In fact, the late anthropologist and archaeologist Kenneth Russell examined the evidence for roughly a hundred major earthquakes in the region and reported in The Earthquake Chronology of Palestine and Northwest Arabia from the 2nd Through the Mid-8th Century A. D that 71 of them were centered in the Judea-Samaria region.

    So the idea of an earthquake taking place is far from preposterous.
    See post #103

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Matthew 28.2

    καὶ ἰδοὺ σεισμὸς ἐγένετο μέγας· ἄγγελος γὰρ κυρίου καταβὰς ἐξ οὐρα νοῦ καὶ προσελθὼν ἀπεκύλισεν τὸν λίθον καὶ ἐκάθητο ἐπάνω αὐτοῦ.
    And you think that is a record of an earthquake? ... 可哀そうな

    To repeat my earlier post (#186)

    Qualified by context: αγγελος γαρ κυριου καταβας εξ ουρανου προσελθων απεκυλισεν τον λιθον for an angel of the Lord having descended from heaven, having arrived, rolled away the stone…”

    Do you perhaps think that the addition of accents changes the meaning?
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-02-2021, 09:59 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    But this earthquake of yours: where is it? It is not in Matthew's record.
    Matthew 28.2

    καὶ ἰδοὺ σεισμὸς ἐγένετο μέγας· ἄγγελος γὰρ κυρίου καταβὰς ἐξ οὐρα νοῦ καὶ προσελθὼν ἀπεκύλισεν τὸν λίθον καὶ ἐκάθητο ἐπάνω αὐτοῦ.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Firstly no other gospel writer mentions this miraculous event and secondly, as previously noted, if someone in the 21st century really believes an angel came down, caused an earthquake, and moved a stone, they will, presumably, believe anything.

    People are free to accept or reject Matthew's record according to their own assessments. As you have noted, there is no collaborating evidence. But this earthquake of yours: where is it? It is not in Matthew's record.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Hypatia_Alexandria

    LSJ: σεισμ-ός , , ( σείω ) shaking, shock , γῆς ς . earthquake , E. HF 862 , Th. 3.87 ; χθονός E. IT 1166 : abs., Hdt. 4.28 , 5.85 , 7.129 , S. OC 95 , Ar. Ec. 791 , Th. 1.23 , etc.
    2. generally, shock, agitation, commotion , ς. τοῦ σώματος

    BDAG: σεισμός, οῦ, ὁ (σείω; Eur. et al. in var. senses)a violent shaking or commotion, shock,
    agitation, in our lit. only of natural phenomena, w. the specific type qualified by context

    Qualified by context: αγγελος γαρ κυριου καταβας εξ ουρανου προσελθων απεκυλισεν τον λιθον for an angel of the Lord having descended from heaven, having arrived, rolled away the stone…”
    Firstly no other gospel writer mentions this miraculous event and secondly, as previously noted, if someone in the 21st century really believes an angel came down, caused an earthquake, and moved a stone, they will, presumably, believe anything.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Hypatia_Alexandria

    LSJ: σεισμ-ός , , ( σείω ) shaking, shock , γῆς ς . earthquake , E. HF 862 , Th. 3.87 ; χθονός E. IT 1166 : abs., Hdt. 4.28 , 5.85 , 7.129 , S. OC 95 , Ar. Ec. 791 , Th. 1.23 , etc.
    2. generally, shock, agitation, commotion , ς. τοῦ σώματος

    BDAG: σεισμός, οῦ, ὁ (σείω; Eur. et al. in var. senses)a violent shaking or commotion, shock,
    agitation, in our lit. only of natural phenomena, w. the specific type qualified by context

    Qualified by context: αγγελος γαρ κυριου καταβας εξ ουρανου προσελθων απεκυλισεν τον λιθον for an angel of the Lord having descended from heaven, having arrived, rolled away the stone…”

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    What caused the ground to quake? Where is the seismic event of yours mentioned?
    According to Matthew 28 this event heralded an angel's appearance. However, if a 21st century individual believes that they will, presumably, believe anything.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    What caused the ground to quake? Where is the seismic event of yours mentioned?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    A severe and localised quake resulting from a stone being rolled away from the tomb, and (presumably) falling over? How could that possibly happen where the bedrock is limestone? I do wonder.
    Why?

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Why was it that the earth quaked again? Oh yes, "for an angel of the Lord came and ..."
    It is a story. It adds "colour and texture".

    Furthermore, why do the other three accounts not mention this seismic event?

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    And an earthquake in a region prone to seismic activity. Obviously impossible. And even more impossible to have one take place around the time of Jesus' crucifixion[1].

    Moreover, several scholars have noted that the word σεισμος and translated as "earthquake" here actually signifying any kind of shaking, whether in the earth, air, or sea (for instance in Matthew 8:24 it is translated as meaning "tempest" or "storm." IOW, the word here might be better understood to be a large storm.

    Finally, IMHO, Matthew described not something that was witnessed but rather inferred it from what they saw as the various translations such as the NASB make clearer by stating

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 28:2
    And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone, and sat upon it
    A severe and localised quake resulting from a stone being rolled away from the tomb, and (presumably) falling over? How could that possibly happen where the bedrock is limestone? I do wonder.

    Why was it that the earth quaked again? Oh yes, "for an angel of the Lord came and ..."
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2021, 04:09 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Your own citations have more than enough "would haves" and "could not haves" to show that supposition is a strong influence on your chosen authors' findings.




    If you actually read what I have written you will note that the known historical evidence is enough to dismiss Ramsay's theologically biased speculation and assumption for which he had no historical evidence whatsoever..

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Your own citations have more than enough "would haves" and "could not haves" to show that supposition is a strong influence on your chosen authors' findings.





    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    To date, every reference I have seen places that campaign between 12 BCE and 7 BCE.
    Syme writes in his paper “Observations on the Province of Cilicia” in Ronald Syme Roman Papers I Ed. E Badian, 1975, Oxford University Press, p. 147 that with regard to Galatia the full history is lost, or it was never written down.

    He notes that “The visible results were half a dozen military colonies, a road – or rather a series of roads and a pacified land “.This was of course was standard Roman procedure once an area had been subdued. In one of his footnotes on that page Symne also comments that “ The credit not merely of illuminating and enlarging but very precisely discovering this notable chapter of Anatolian and of imperial Roman history belongs to Sir William Ramsay (see especially ‘Studies in the Roman Province of Galatia, The Homandeis and the Homandendsian War’ JRS viii (1917), 229ff). On that same page he also notes that “At some date between 12 BC and AD 1 P. Sulpicius Quirinius subjugated at last the land of the Homandenses a necessary but not an urgent task”.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    That certainly does not preclude Quirinius' presence in Syria and Cilicia at the (assumed) time of Christ's birth,
    These were two separate provinces. He could not have held a senior administrative position in both simultaneously.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    and the "uncertain and disputed" certainly does not extend as far as 6CE.
    We know from Josesphus that the census conducted in Judaea in 6 CE was new and entirely unheard of. Hence the uprising by Judas of Gamala even though his region was untouched by the census he saw it as an affront to his god Yahweh and the land of Israel.

    We also know that Publius Quinctilius Varus held the post of governor of Syria from 7/6 BCE until 4 BCE when Herod the Great died and that he put down a Judaean revolt after Herod’s death.

    From 4-5 CE Volusius Saturninusis is attested as governor of Syria and was followed one year later by Quirinius.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Major difficulties attend trying to get information about the Middle East in the range 100BCE - 100CE, because so much of it is intertwined with religious considerations. The occasional piece can be found, however, which does not concern itself with religious issues. Would have been nice to find something more recent.
    Have you tried a good bookshop or library?

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Source: William Mitchell Ramsay. "Studies in the Roman Province Galatia. VI.--Some Inscriptions of Colonia Caesarea Antiochea." The Journal of Roman Studies, 1924, Vol. 14 (1924), pp. 172-205


    Now we know that part of the Syrian legions were employed in that war, for Quirinius, legatus of Syria, was commanding the army in the war. .... There was also an ala Germaniciana at Antiochea. When the five Colo'niae Augustae were founded in 6 B.C. after the Homandensian war, and the viae Sebastae were constructed to connect them with the military centre and caput viarum, Colonia Caesarea (Antiochea), (p 203)

    © Copyright Original Source

    That citation is rather amusing given that when I cited Ronald Syme’s paper from 1934 you suggested that he "had no access to the archaeological discoveries of the latter half of the twentieth century.”

    As Syme died in 1989 and he was publishing up until the mid 1980s that statement was self-evidently erroneous.

    However, it is apposite for Ramsay who died in April 1939 and who most certainly did not have “access to the archaeological discoveries of the latter half of the twentieth century”.

    What Ramsay writes in your extract is nothing but his opinion and he basing his opinion upon no actual historical evidence. In fact he even is arguing against himself .

    Once again I am referring to Ronald Syme's paper "Galatia and Pamphylia Under Augustus: The Governorship of Piso, Quirinius, and Silvanus" Klio, Vol XXVII, 1934, p.133.

    The problem of the attribution of the lapis Tiburtinus has confused the issue. It was an unsound method to argue from the unknown to the known, from lapis to Quirinius and the Homanadenses. The question must be investigated without prepossessions as though the lapis Tiburtinus did not exist. What then was the position held by Quirinius at the time of the Homadensian War? Quirinius was of consular standing, and the only consular military province in the East was Syria. It was therefore assumed as axiomatic that Quirinius was governor of Syria. But this was a dangerous assumption. The governor of Syria or troops from Syria, might intervene beyond their province in cases of emergency, to deal with a sudden rising; and troops were in fact dispatched from Syrian 36 AD to deal with the Cietae in Cilicia-Tracheia, on the southern slopes of the Taurus. But to carry out a well-planned and perhaps lengthy process of subjugation north of the Taurus is not a function of the governor of Syria. Sir William Ramsay has himself argued most forcibly that the operations against the Homandenses would have to be conducted from the north, from the side of Galatia. His belief that the general in charge of these operations can only have been the legate of Syria [absent from his own province for several years] therefore appears to be a paradox."

    [My emphasis]

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    On the same page, Ramsay notes that other authors place Quirinius in Egypt, or other locales. The important points: the Homandensian War was concluded by 6BCE - Quirinius, Legate of Syria was commanding in that war.
    That again is early [pre 1924] scholarly opinion. However, we do know that the legions did move around the empire a great deal.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    The very shaky best that might at an unlikely chance just maybe, is that Luke got Quirinius' title wrong.
    We know that Quirinius was appointed to the position of governor of Syria by Augustus and was ordered to carry out the Judaean census in 6-7 CE

    The simple fact of the matter is that the evidence we have disputes Ramsay’s entirely unsubstantiated contention that Quirinius held the governorship of Syria from 11/10 BCE to 8/7 BCE and then again a decade later.

    Given Ramsay’s dates [1851-1939] he was very much a Englishman brought during the height of Empire when Christian certainties still prevailed within academia. He also, as was typical of the time for many, held his own deep Christian convictions.

    However, on this occasion he permitted his theological bias to override his position as a dispassionate historian.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    The precise dating of the Homandensian campaign is uncertain and disputed by modern ancient historians. The surviving evidence as it we have it, is derived from epigraphy there are no extant literary sources.
    To date, every reference I have seen places that campaign between 12 BCE and 7 BCE. That certainly does not preclude Quirinius' presence in Syria and Cilicia at the (assumed) time of Christ's birth, and the "uncertain and disputed" certainly does not extend as far as 6CE.

    Major difficulties attend trying to get information about the Middle East in the range 100BCE - 100CE, because so much of it is intertwined with religious considerations. The occasional piece can be found, however, which does not concern itself with religious issues. Would have been nice to find something more recent.

    Source: William Mitchell Ramsay. "Studies in the Roman Province Galatia. VI.--Some Inscriptions of Colonia Caesarea Antiochea." The Journal of Roman Studies, 1924, Vol. 14 (1924), pp. 172-205


    Now we know that part of the Syrian legions were employed in that war, for Quirinius, legatus of Syria, was commanding the army in the war. .... There was also an ala Germaniciana at Antiochea. When the five Colo'niae Augustae were founded in 6 B.C. after the Homandensian war, and the viae Sebastae were constructed to connect them with the military centre and caput viarum, Colonia Caesarea (Antiochea), (p 203)

    © Copyright Original Source



    On the same page, Ramsay notes that other authors place Quirinius in Egypt, or other locales. The important points: the Homandensian War was concluded by 6BCE - Quirinius, Legate of Syria was commanding in that war. The very shaky best that might at an unlikely chance just maybe, is that Luke got Quirinius' title wrong. But - a comment on Wikipedia might square that away too.

    Quirinius: From 12 to 1 BC, he led a campaign against the Homanades (Homonadenses), a tribe based in the mountainous region of Galatia and Cilicia, around 5–3 BC, probably as legate of Galatia. He won the campaign by reducing their strongholds and starving out the defenders.[4] For this victory, he was awarded a triumph and elected duumvir by the colony of Antioch of Pisidia.[5]
    Last edited by tabibito; 06-26-2021, 12:13 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    According to you, any sources I might provide are nothing more than worthless propaganda
    Where have I intimated any such thing?

    I have asked you to substantiate your allegations with some evidence that is all.

    Leave a comment:

Related Threads

Collapse

Topics Statistics Last Post
Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
39 responses
186 views
0 likes
Last Post whag
by whag
 
Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
21 responses
132 views
0 likes
Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
80 responses
428 views
0 likes
Last Post tabibito  
Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
45 responses
305 views
1 like
Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
406 responses
2,517 views
2 likes
Last Post tabibito  
Working...
X