Originally posted by rogue06
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Ancient Sources: History and Theology.
Collapse
X
-
Last edited by tabibito; 07-12-2021, 08:53 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
And in the Samaritan calendar - said by the Samaritans to begin with Israel's entry to the Holy Land - 2014 was their year 3652 (which makes 2021 their year 3659) 2021 - 3659 = -1638. So, the dates derived from the Old Testament (Masoretic Text) records are probably wrong. Records of the event are not thereby demonstrated to be wrong - just the timing extrapolated from the MT text.
I recommend you start to educate yourself on the known archaeological history of this region.
Might I suggest you begin with Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's The Bible Unearthed?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Sadly, atheist sources are usually secondary. The primary sources are most often well regarded theologians. Some of them are even so convincing that they fall for the nonsense themselves and opt out of Christianity.
Does the name Oxyrhynchus mean anything to you?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
very nice - I'll pinch a copy for future reference. ETA Scratch that - resolution isn't good enough.
I prefer the bar graph but this conveys the same info.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe fact remains that there is no proof to show that he was not a Duumvir. In fact, every creditable source declares that he was.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
You do not seem to be acquainted with the disciplines of archaeology and papyrology.
Does the name Oxyrhynchus mean anything to you?
What I can do with a high degree of accuracy is determine when claims that are made about the Biblical record are specious.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
I know very little about the fields of archaeology and less about papyrology.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostYou, on the other hand, did not know until a few days ago that there was more than one variant of Passover celebration in first century Judaea.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostYour knowledge and understanding are far from complete, even within the limits that are available to current scholarship.
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
What I can do with a high degree of accuracy is determine when claims that are made about the Biblical record are specious.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostAs your replies repeatedly demonstrate.
What do you mean by a "variant"? Was there a Passover that lasted for 12 days and where the Paschal lobster was eaten?
Well there is nothing like stating the blindingly obvious is there?
Premised on our exchanges you simply reject secular academic contentions and historical evidence that challenges your preconceived beliefs.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The outcome of those repeated demonstrations saw you contradict yourself.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostYou have asked this "question" before, and I have answered it before.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostYou repeatedly demonstrate that you are oblivious to this particular blindingly obvious fact.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostScant few false claims about the content of the Biblical record originate with secular scholarship, and for the most part, my focus has been on those claims.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe author of Luke uses the general military term to refer to Quirinius as the governor.
You have not answered adequately.
Can you rephrase that please? The sentence you have written appears to contradict itself.
For the most part, my focus has been on false claims about the Biblical record. Scant few of those claims originate with secular scholarship,.Last edited by tabibito; 07-13-2021, 11:17 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
You cannot afford to believe otherwise. If you did, you would have to admit that Luke might not be in error.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe question was answered with adequate detail.
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
On this you are correct.
For the most part, my focus has been on false claims about the Biblical record. Scant few of those claims originate with secular scholarship,.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIf Luke's account is correct, Matthew's account is wrong. And vice versa. Jesus could not have been born during the 6 CE census and also born pre 4 BCE while Herod the Great was still King of Judaea. Unless you are contending that he was born twice which is what Theodore, bishop of Mopsuestia suggested, namely that Jesus had been conceived twice, once in a divine form and once in a human form, aka the so-called Two Sons formula.
I would like some accredited academic sources that support your contentions.
However:
Are you suggesting that false claims originate among believers?
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Who says anything about the census of 6CE? Who says anything about Quirinius actually conducting the census in Judaea at the time of Christ's birth? Luke doesn't.
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Once more stating the patently obvious; any that I might offer, now or future, you have already rejected.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostHowever:
And that reply continues:
However, Geza Vermes in his book titled: "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English", points out the Qumran community, a.k.a. the Essenes had a different yearly calendar than the Temple Priests and thus had a different day for Passover. "..."Passover, the fifteenth day of the first month, was always celebrated on a Wednesday;"...pg79.
Which gives support to the my theory that Jesus was probably an Essene. Meaning, the year of the crucifixion was 30 A.D. and the day he died was Wednesday, which if you do the math gives us a full 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb, just as Jesus prophesied in Matthew 12:38-40 and reconciles Ehrman's "textbook case".
Then again, perhaps Geza Vermes got the Essene calendar all wrong.
Hmmm.
I will take the findings of a reputable scholar like Geza Vermes over the ramblings of some contributor putting forward his unsupported and speculative ideas on an internet discussion board. Clearly his respondents took issue with some of his theories And whomsoever John T is he never responded to Rabbi Milton on page 2 of that thread where Milton wrote:
These are the wrong questions entirely. As John is presumed from Rev. to have been a
prophet, and not just an apostle, the questions should be:
What do you do about the violation of the prohibition against doing ordinary work by the
chief priests (going to Pilate, entering his domain, submitting pleadings before a pagan
overlord on an ordinary matter so as to neglect overriding duties at the Temple in going to the
sepulchre & sealing it)? How could the day after the Crucifixion have been on a Saturday, let
alone on the 15th?.
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
A substantial number (at least) have originated with theologians - including the story that John's gospel and the synoptics conflict WRT the date of Christ's execution.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
If you read the texts of the Synoptics and John critically side by side you can see quite plainly they contradict one another.
NOT ALWAYS
So Ehrman claims that
According to Mark, Jesus was executed on the day of Passover, which in the temple calendar is 15/01, a Sabbath regardless of the day of the week on which it falls.
And, if Ehrman's assessment is to be believed, having been executed on the day of Passover, Jesus will be dead and buried on the day before his execution. (Mark 15:42)
Mark 15:42 When evening had already come,because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath … 44 Pilate … questioned him (a centurion) as to whether He was already dead. 45 And ascertaining this from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph
According to Mark – Jesus died on the day of preparation, which by Ehrman’s account of Mark was the day before Jesus was executed.
John 19:31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Here, Ehrman has made a glaringly obvious mistake.Last edited by tabibito; 07-13-2021, 02:47 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
(though there are some discrepancies, and perhaps a couple of outright contradictions)
NOT ALWAYS
So Ehrman claims that
According to Mark, Jesus was executed on the day of Passover, which in the temple calendar is 15/01, a Sabbath regardless of the day of the week on which it falls.
And, if Ehrman's assessment is to be believed, having been executed on the day of Passover, Jesus will be dead and buried on the day before his execution. (Mark 15:42)
Mark 15:42 When evening had already come,because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath … 44 Pilate … questioned him (a centurion) as to whether He was already dead. 45 And ascertaining this from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph
According to Mark – Jesus died on the day of preparation, which by Ehrman’s account of Mark was the day before Jesus was executed.
John 19:31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Here, Ehrman has made a glaringly obvious mistake."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 04-17-2024, 08:31 AM
|
15 responses
74 views
0 likes
|
Last Post Yesterday, 09:46 AM | ||
Started by Neptune7, 04-15-2024, 06:54 AM
|
25 responses
148 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Cerebrum123
04-17-2024, 08:31 AM
|
||
Started by whag, 04-09-2024, 01:04 PM
|
102 responses
558 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Yesterday, 11:43 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 04-07-2024, 10:17 AM
|
39 responses
251 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
04-12-2024, 02:58 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
|
154 responses
1,017 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by whag
04-12-2024, 12:39 PM
|
Comment