Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
You are not making sense. You have no rational reason to doubt Matthew's account.
However, this pericope needs to be understood within its context. The interpretation of dreams was another form of divination in the ancient world and dreams were often interpreted to be signs of divine guidance. In Matthew both Joseph [1.20] and the Magi [2.12] have dreams that guide them to certain actions. Joseph receives an angelic messenger in a dream telling him to marry Mary and the Magi are warned in a dream not to return to Herod. They therefore return to their own country "by a different road".
That a Gentile woman has such a profound dream wherein she has "suffered a great deal" about Jesus and his innocence only serves to deepen the guilt of the Jewish leaders. That she only knows he is innocent because of her dream lends further emphasis to this dream being a divine intervention. Hence it is not Pilate's wife but God [through this Gentile woman] who testifies to Jesus' righteousness.Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 05-12-2021, 04:38 AM."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
If I say, "On Thursday night, I went to Bob's house," and then later say, "On Thursday night, I went out with my wife," and then still later say, "On Thursday night, I watched 2001: A Space Odyssey," are those necessarily contradictions, or are they merely different details about the exact same event? Or suppose I relate a conversation I had with my friend Gary. I say, "Gary asked me if I knew how to knit. I said no." He relates it as, "We spent hours talking about the films of Stanley Kubrick, and then the topic of knitting somehow came up. I asked Mountain Man if he knew how to knit, and he just laughed at me." Again, necessarily contradictory, or merely different details about the exact same event?
Why do those four accounts differ in their specifics?
Why do these same alleged eye-witnesses not agree on when the interrogation with Pilate took place? The Synoptics writers tell us it was after Passover. John writes it was on early on the eve of Passover.
Why is there a ten year discrepancy between the two birth narratives?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
We have four supposed independent eye-witnesses to the alleged same event i.e. the empty tomb, who went to it and what was found to be there.
Why do those four accounts differ in their specifics?
Why do these same alleged eye-witnesses not agree on when the interrogation with Pilate took place? The Synoptics writers tell us it was after Passover. John writes it was on early on the eve of Passover.
Why is there a ten year discrepancy between the two birth narratives?
You say, "Why do those four accounts differ in their specifics?" to which I can only answer, why not? Why do you expect that different people would all report the exact same details?
Regarding the timing of the Passover, John does not say that Jesus was interrogated "early on the eve of Passover", but, rather, that the Jewish leaders refused to enter the governor's quarters "so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover" (John 18:28). In Jewish tradition, there were actually multiple meals eaten during the time of Passover and not just the Sedar. It is these other meals that are likely being referenced. More information here.
Regarding the supposed ten year discrepancy, I suppose you're referring to when the census took place? At the risk of being accused of arguing by weblink, I will simply direct to you this comprehensive essay by Christian Thinktank's Glenn Miller.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe pericope at 27.19 is not corroborated anywhere else [even in the other gospels] and we have no extraneous contemporary evidence that Pilate was married at this time. There is therefore every rational reason to question the veracity of this account.
No there isn't, you are just making stuff up again.
However, this pericope needs to be understood within its context. The interpretation of dreams was another form of divination in the ancient world and dreams were often interpreted to be signs of divine guidance. In Matthew both Joseph [1.20] and the Magi [2.12] have dreams that guide them to certain actions. Joseph receives an angelic messenger in a dream telling him to marry Mary and the Magi are warned in a dream not to return to Herod. They therefore return to their own country "by a different road".
That a Gentile woman has such a profound dream wherein she has "suffered a great deal" about Jesus and his innocence only serves to deepen the guilt of the Jewish leaders. That she only knows he is innocent because of her dream lends further emphasis to this dream being a divine intervention. Hence it is not Pilate's wife but God [through this Gentile woman] who testifies to Jesus' righteousness.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
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Originally posted by seer View Post
No there isn't, you are just making stuff up again.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd?
Originally posted by seer View PostSo? But the point was - there could have been a number of sources for the exchange in question.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
I feel like no matter what explanation I give, you're just going to keep asking, "But why? But why?" It's like conversing with a toddler. I've already given you an answer, but to be more specific:
You say, "Why do those four accounts differ in their specifics?" to which I can only answer, why not? Why do you expect that different people would all report the exact same details?
You are simply wriggling.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostRegarding the timing of the Passover, John does not say that Jesus was interrogated "early on the eve of Passover",
Bear in mind how the Jews define a day.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View Postbut, rather, that the Jewish leaders refused to enter the governor's quarters "so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover" (John 18:28). In Jewish tradition, there were actually multiple meals eaten during the time of Passover and not just the Sedar.
It is these other meals that are likely being referenced. More information here.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostRegarding the supposed ten year discrepancy, I suppose you're referring to when the census took place? At the risk of being accused of arguing by weblink, I will simply direct to you this comprehensive essay by Christian Thinktank's Glenn Miller.
I could take it apart section by section but it would be an extremely detailed and long reply and I doubt you would bother to read it.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostI could take it apart section by section...Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
Comment
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostWhich seems to be the only way you can respond to any argument, taking it on one out-of-context piece at a time instead of addressing the whole of it at once."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Clearly a university education by-passed you.
Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe pericope at 27.19 is not corroborated anywhere else [even in the other gospels] and we have no extraneous contemporary evidence that Pilate was married at this time. There is therefore every rational reason to question the veracity of this account.
Then in the early 60s all of that changed when the "Pilate Stone was uncovered during an archaeological dig at Caesarea Palestinae. And since that time some coins and a ring have been found bearing his name.
And that is pretty much the extent of the historical record outside of the Bible that we have on him.
So for you to disdainfully sniff that there is "no extraneous contemporary evidence that Pilate was married at this time" is at the very least disingenuous and likely dishonestly duplicitous. The fact is that we know exceedingly little about Pilate due to a lack of contemporaneous accounts concerning him.
Moreover, isn't it interesting that we finally uncovered evidence for his existence during our lifetime. I mean, considering that he was the Roman governor of Judea? What I mean is that you have repeatedly demanded all sorts of contemporary documentation for someone you argue "had no impact on the world. He lived and died a nonentity" and then use the scarcity of such material to argue against his existence. But here we have a governor that we didn't have a scrap of documentation about outside of Christian sources.
So if documentation from Pilate's time that mention him, probably the most important person in the region, were unknown until a little over 50 years ago, why should anyone expect a bunch of documentation concerning Jesus?
And ironically, even with only the tiny fragments we have, as Warren Carter informs us in Pontius Pilate: Portraits of a Roman Governor, modern scholars know a good deal more about him than about any other of the Roman governors there. Apparently, for some all we have is a name.
So much for demands for contemporary documents mentioning someone.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
We have four supposed independent eye-witnesses to the alleged same event i.e. the empty tomb, who went to it and what was found to be there.
Why do those four accounts differ in their specifics?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIt wasn't all that long ago that scoffers such of yourself claimed that Pilate never existed because we had no record of him. That Christian's simply concocted him out of whole cloth.
Then in the early 60s all of that changed when the "Pilate Stone was uncovered during an archaeological dig at Caesarea Palestinae. And since that time some coins and a ring have been found bearing his name.
And that is pretty much the extent of the historical record outside of the Bible that we have on him.
So for you to disdainfully sniff that there is "no extraneous contemporary evidence that Pilate was married at this time" is at the very least disingenuous and likely dishonestly duplicitous. The fact is that we know exceedingly little about Pilate due to a lack of contemporaneous accounts concerning him.
Moreover, isn't it interesting that we finally uncovered evidence for his existence during our lifetime. I mean, considering that he was the Roman governor of Judea? What I mean is that you have repeatedly demanded all sorts of contemporary documentation for someone you argue "had no impact on the world. He lived and died a nonentity" and then use the scarcity of such material to argue against his existence. But here we have a governor that we didn't have a scrap of documentation about outside of Christian sources.
So if documentation from Pilate's time that mention him, probably the most important person in the region, were unknown until a little over 50 years ago, why should anyone expect a bunch of documentation concerning Jesus?
And ironically, even with only the tiny fragments we have, as Warren Carter informs us in Pontius Pilate: Portraits of a Roman Governor, modern scholars know a good deal more about him than about any other of the Roman governors there. Apparently, for some all we have is a name.
So much for demands for contemporary documents mentioning someone.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
Comment
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Yes, I suppose that's why I can present my arguments as a series of unbroken paragraphs instead of picking apart a post sentence fragment by sentence fragment
:"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
It is a fact that there is not a single piece of archeological evidence that contradicts the Bible."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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