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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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Ancient Sources: History and Theology.

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  • tabibito
    replied
    When did the interrogation by Pilate occur? Before or after Passover?
    The Biblical record itself, in each of the four gospels, declares that it was during the daylight hours of the Jewish Day of Preparation, the day before Passover according to the Temple's liturgical calendar. Anyone who CLAIMS that the Bible record is in conflict simply hasn't demonstrated enough interest to actually personally assess what those accounts declare. Either that, or the person lacks the skills necessary to pass a reading comprehension test designed for ten year old. John, thrice, explicitly declares the day of crucifixion to be the day before the Passover (John 19: 14, 31, 42.)

    When was Jesus born? During the reign of Herod the Great or during the census of Quirinius?
    Bare assertions that Luke claimed Quirinius was Prefect to the contrary, Luke states that it was during the first census held during the time that Qurinius held a command position in Syria, which was during the time of Herod the Great's reign.

    Who actually went to the tomb?
    Women at dawn, others later. Some accounts are more detailed than others.

    Did Jesus experience a bloody sweat [Luke 22.39-46] or not?
    If ōsei (ωσει) is accepted to be meaningless in this sentence, Jesus sweated blood.



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  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    And in the Samaritan calendar - said by the Samaritans to begin with Israel's entry to the Holy Land - 2014 was their year 3652 (which makes 2021 their year 3659) 2021 - 3659 = -1638. So, the dates derived from the Old Testament (Masoretic Text) records are probably wrong. Records of the event are not thereby demonstrated to be wrong - just the timing extrapolated from the MT text.
    There are significant difference between the dating found in the Samaritan, The Masoretic and the Septuagint. I first noticed them while doing a bit of research on the patriarchs. For instance
    This would indicate a fairly fluid tradition for the exact dating that wasn't exactly set in stone.

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  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Have you informed the Chief Rabbinate of Israel of your findings?
    I'm sure they are well aware of the claims. The Samaritans live right alongside them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    And in the Samaritan calendar - said by the Samaritans to begin with Israel's entry to the Holy Land - 2014 was their year 3652 (which makes 2021 their year 3659) 2021 - 3659 = -1638. So, the dates derived from the Old Testament (Masoretic Text) records are probably wrong. Records of the event are not thereby demonstrated to be wrong - just the timing extrapolated from the MT text.
    Have you informed the Chief Rabbinate of Israel of your findings?

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    From the link you provided: https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2...on-at-jericho/

    The controversy centers on the dating of the destruction of City IV at Jericho. Everyone agrees that Canaanite Jericho was destroyed in a violent, fiery manner. Not everyone agrees on the date that this happened. The first excavators, Sellin and Watzinger, who dug from 1907 to 1909, concluded that Jericho had been destroyed in the Middle Bronze Age, by at least 1600 BC.2 In the 1930’s, British archaeologist, John Garstang excavated a residential area of Jericho and concluded that the fiery destruction of the city occurred in the Late Bronze Age, ca. 1400 BC, linking it with Joshua and the Israelites.3 From 1952-58, Dame Kathleen Kenyon excavated at Jericho and dated the destruction of City IV to the end of the Middle Bronze Age, ca 1550 BC4, meaning that there was no city of Jericho for Joshua to conquer at the time the Bible describes the conquest of Canaan. More recently, archaeologist Bryant Wood has suggested that Kenyon’s analysis of the date of this destruction is incorrect, as she based her conclusions largely on the absence of Cypriot bichrome pottery.5
    And in the Samaritan calendar - said by the Samaritans to begin with Israel's entry to the Holy Land - 2014 was their year 3652 (which makes 2021 their year 3659) 2021 - 3659 = -1638. So, the dates derived from the Old Testament (Masoretic Text) records are probably wrong. Records of the event are not thereby demonstrated to be wrong - just the timing extrapolated from the MT text.
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-12-2021, 06:35 PM.

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  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    That seems to be a fairly standard reaction, including instances where it's the response without even troubling to look at what was written[1], and your concluding statement very likely sums up the reason.

    Some folks comfort themselves in the mistaken belief that Christianity is nothing but a bunch of ridiculous contradictions, foolish over-the-top assertions and other things that "nobody" can make any sense of. And whenever anyone has the gall to dare to contradict any of their usual litany of PRATTs[2], it is viewed as some sort of personal assault. A figurative slap in the face. An attack on the basic pillars of their decision to reject Jesus / Christianity.

    Hence the Pavlovian response of summarily rejecting and ridiculing anything that questions it.





    1. case in point: when I mentioned that Christians didn't co-opt December 25th

    2. and this is not to say that there aren't genuine legitimate questions, but what gets offered up time and time again are almost always the same old tired misconceptions that sound like the person is getting their information out of Dawkins' God Delusion or something equally bottom of the barrel.
    Sadly, atheist sources are usually secondary. The primary sources are most often well regarded theologians. Some of them are even so convincing that they fall for the nonsense themselves and opt out of Christianity.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Oh that is interesting. I suppose as here there are people arriving in Australia who need to improve their new language. .

    Is it open to all? Or just for those of the Christian faith?

    Presumably that is not done in your capacity of a TESOL teacher though?
    The classes that I help with are open to all. Other classes are focussed on Biblical matters, also open to all, but non-Christians tend to self filter and not attend.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    I'm trained to teach at TESOL certificate 4 standard, but not accredited,
    Oh that is interesting. I suppose as here there are people arriving in Australia who need to improve their new language. .

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    and teach as a volunteer in the free "English for conversation classes" at a local Baptist church
    Is it open to all? Or just for those of the Christian faith?

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    . Also facilitate for church youth Bible study groups from time to time, though not just now - the latter mostly consists of teaching reading comprehension and encourages the group to direct the course for study sessions.
    Presumably that is not done in your capacity of a TESOL teacher though?

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    I'm trained to teach at TESOL certificate 4 standard, but not accredited, and teach as a volunteer in the free "English for conversation classes" at a local Baptist church. Also facilitate for church youth Bible study groups from time to time, though not just now - the latter mostly consists of teaching reading comprehension and encourages the group to direct the course for study sessions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Hardly. It will make for a useful addition to my collection of teaching realia.
    A question. If you are an undergraduate until the end of this semester, how are you permitted to teach? Are you employed in some unaccredited institution? Or are you a lay teacher in a church?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Physical objects used to assist in giving students a feel for the subject at hand, particularly in language teaching. It is probably jargon, made up by academics - but somehow appropriate anyway.

    Here tis: Merriam Webster

    Realia, was first used in the late 19th century, and is still mostly used in the classroom by teachers, especially foreign language teachers. It is also used in library cataloguing (in reference to such bizarre things as an author's hair and teeth donated posthumously) and occasionally finds its way into other contexts as well. You might, for example, hear of someone putting "realia"-objects that represent present-day life-in a time capsule.
    Oh as in real things? I thought it was an acronym of some sort.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Physical objects used to assist in giving students a feel for the subject at hand, particularly in language teaching. It is probably jargon, made up by academics - but somehow appropriate anyway.

    Here tis: Merriam Webster

    Realia, was first used in the late 19th century, and is still mostly used in the classroom by teachers, especially foreign language teachers. It is also used in library cataloguing (in reference to such bizarre things as an author's hair and teeth donated posthumously) and occasionally finds its way into other contexts as well. You might, for example, hear of someone putting "realia"-objects that represent present-day life-in a time capsule.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Hardly. It will make for a useful addition to my collection of teaching realia.
    "realia"? I am not familiar with that word.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Hardly. It will make for a useful addition to my collection of teaching realia.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Way too precious. I've taken screen shots for posterity.
    Do you want an autographed photograph as well? Isn't that what fans usually request?

    Leave a comment:

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