Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Ancient Sources: History and Theology.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    (though there are some discrepancies, and perhaps a couple of outright contradictions)

    NOT ALWAYS

    Source: Bart D. Ehrman. Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible And Why We Don't Know About Them



    … And we are told exactly when Pilate pronounces the sentence: “It was the Day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was about noon. (John 19:14)

    Noon? On the Day of Preparation for the Passover? The day the lambs were slaughtered? How can that be? In Mark’s Gospel, Jesus lived through that day, had his disciples prepare the Passover meal, and ate it before being arrested, taken to jail for the night, tried the next morning and executed at nine o’clock A.M. on the Passover Day. But not in John. In John, Jesus dies a day earlier, on the Day of Preparation for the Passover, sometime after noon.

    © Copyright Original Source



    So Ehrman claims that

    According to Mark, Jesus was executed on the day of Passover, which in the temple calendar is 15/01, a Sabbath regardless of the day of the week on which it falls.
    And, if Ehrman's assessment is to be believed, having been executed on the day of Passover, Jesus will be dead and buried on the day before his execution. (Mark 15:42)


    Mark 15:42 When evening had already come,because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath … 44 Pilate … questioned him (a centurion) as to whether He was already dead. 45 And ascertaining this from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph
    According to Mark – Jesus died on the day of preparation, which by Ehrman’s account of Mark was the day before Jesus was executed.

    John 19:31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

    Here, Ehrman has made a glaringly obvious mistake.
    I'd like you tell me how you interpret Luke 2:1-8.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post


    If you read the texts of the Synoptics and John critically side by side you can see quite plainly they contradict one another.

    (though there are some discrepancies, and perhaps a couple of outright contradictions)

    NOT ALWAYS

    Source: Bart D. Ehrman. Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible And Why We Don't Know About Them



    … And we are told exactly when Pilate pronounces the sentence: “It was the Day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was about noon. (John 19:14)

    Noon? On the Day of Preparation for the Passover? The day the lambs were slaughtered? How can that be? In Mark’s Gospel, Jesus lived through that day, had his disciples prepare the Passover meal, and ate it before being arrested, taken to jail for the night, tried the next morning and executed at nine o’clock A.M. on the Passover Day. But not in John. In John, Jesus dies a day earlier, on the Day of Preparation for the Passover, sometime after noon.

    © Copyright Original Source



    So Ehrman claims that

    According to Mark, Jesus was executed on the day of Passover, which in the temple calendar is 15/01, a Sabbath regardless of the day of the week on which it falls.
    And, if Ehrman's assessment is to be believed, having been executed on the day of Passover, Jesus will be dead and buried on the day before his execution. (Mark 15:42)


    Mark 15:42 When evening had already come,because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath … 44 Pilate … questioned him (a centurion) as to whether He was already dead. 45 And ascertaining this from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph
    According to Mark – Jesus died on the day of preparation, which by Ehrman’s account of Mark was the day before Jesus was executed.

    John 19:31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

    Here, Ehrman has made a glaringly obvious mistake.
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-13-2021, 03:47 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Who says anything about the census of 6CE? Who says anything about Quirinius actually conducting the census in Judaea at the time of Christ's birth? Luke doesn't.
    How do you interpret Luke 2:1-8?


    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Once more stating the patently obvious; any that I might offer, now or future, you have already rejected.
    If you offer sources from accredited academics I will certainly read them.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    However:
    Source: https://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1432


    Ehrman writes in; "Jesus, Interrupted" that gMark and gJohn have two different dates for the crucifixion of Jesus based on the date of Passover and he uses it as a "textbook case" with his students. Here are some excerpts from the chapter titled; The Death of Jesus, In Mark and John"....(Mark 15:25). Jesus, then, dies on the day of Passover, the morning after the Passover meal was eaten."...pg 26, Ehrman compares that to John 19:14 were he points out..."And we are told exactly when Pilate pronounces the sentence: "It was the Day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was about noon"....bid.

    However, Geza Vermes in his book titled: "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English", points out the Qumran community, a.k.a. the Essenes had a different yearly calendar than the Temple Priests and thus had a different day for Passover. "..."Passover, the fifteenth day of the first month, was always celebrated on a Wednesday;"...pg79.

    © Copyright Original Source


    And that reply continues:

    However, Geza Vermes in his book titled: "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English", points out the Qumran community, a.k.a. the Essenes had a different yearly calendar than the Temple Priests and thus had a different day for Passover. "..."Passover, the fifteenth day of the first month, was always celebrated on a Wednesday;"...pg79.

    Which gives support to the my theory that Jesus was probably an Essene. Meaning, the year of the crucifixion was 30 A.D. and the day he died was Wednesday, which if you do the math gives us a full 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb, just as Jesus prophesied in Matthew 12:38-40 and reconciles Ehrman's "textbook case".

    Then again, perhaps Geza Vermes got the Essene calendar all wrong.


    Hmmm.

    I will take the findings of a reputable scholar like Geza Vermes over the ramblings of some contributor putting forward his unsupported and speculative ideas on an internet discussion board. Clearly his respondents took issue with some of his theories And whomsoever John T is he never responded to Rabbi Milton on page 2 of that thread where Milton wrote:

    These are the wrong questions entirely. As John is presumed from Rev. to have been a
    prophet, and not just an apostle, the questions should be:

    What do you do about the violation of the prohibition against doing ordinary work by the
    chief priests (going to Pilate, entering his domain, submitting pleadings before a pagan
    overlord on an ordinary matter so as to neglect overriding duties at the Temple in going to the
    sepulchre & sealing it)? How could the day after the Crucifixion have been on a Saturday, let
    alone on the 15th?.




    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    A substantial number (at least) have originated with theologians - including the story that John's gospel and the synoptics conflict WRT the date of Christ's execution.
    If you read the texts of the Synoptics and John critically side by side you can see quite plainly they contradict one another.


    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    If Luke's account is correct, Matthew's account is wrong. And vice versa. Jesus could not have been born during the 6 CE census and also born pre 4 BCE while Herod the Great was still King of Judaea. Unless you are contending that he was born twice which is what Theodore, bishop of Mopsuestia suggested, namely that Jesus had been conceived twice, once in a divine form and once in a human form, aka the so-called Two Sons formula.
    Who says anything about the census of 6CE? Who says anything about Quirinius actually conducting the census in Judaea at the time of Christ's birth? Luke doesn't.

    I would like some accredited academic sources that support your contentions.
    Once more stating the patently obvious; any that I might offer, now or future, you have already rejected.

    However:
    Source: https://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1432


    Ehrman writes in; "Jesus, Interrupted" that gMark and gJohn have two different dates for the crucifixion of Jesus based on the date of Passover and he uses it as a "textbook case" with his students. Here are some excerpts from the chapter titled; The Death of Jesus, In Mark and John"....(Mark 15:25). Jesus, then, dies on the day of Passover, the morning after the Passover meal was eaten."...pg 26, Ehrman compares that to John 19:14 were he points out..."And we are told exactly when Pilate pronounces the sentence: "It was the Day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was about noon"....bid.

    However, Geza Vermes in his book titled: "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English", points out the Qumran community, a.k.a. the Essenes had a different yearly calendar than the Temple Priests and thus had a different day for Passover. "..."Passover, the fifteenth day of the first month, was always celebrated on a Wednesday;"...pg79.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Are you suggesting that false claims originate among believers?
    A substantial number (at least) have originated with theologians - including the story that John's gospel and the synoptics conflict WRT the date of Christ's execution. The story originates with a theologian in the late 19th century. (or at least, that is the earliest trace I have been able to find.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    You cannot afford to believe otherwise. If you did, you would have to admit that Luke might not be in error.
    If Luke's account is correct, Matthew's account is wrong. And vice versa. Jesus could not have been born during the 6 CE census and also born pre 4 BCE while Herod the Great was still King of Judaea. Unless you are contending that he was born twice which is what Theodore, bishop of Mopsuestia suggested, namely that Jesus had been conceived twice, once in a divine form and once in a human form, aka the so-called Two Sons formula.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    The question was answered with adequate detail.
    I would like some accredited academic sources that support your contentions.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    On this you are correct.
    For the most part, my focus has been on false claims about the Biblical record. Scant few of those claims originate with secular scholarship,.
    Are you suggesting that false claims originate among believers?

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    The author of Luke uses the general military term to refer to Quirinius as the governor.
    You cannot afford to believe otherwise. If you did, you would have to admit that Luke might not be in error.
    You have not answered adequately.
    The question was answered with adequate detail.


    Can you rephrase that please? The sentence you have written appears to contradict itself.
    On this you are correct.
    For the most part, my focus has been on false claims about the Biblical record. Scant few of those claims originate with secular scholarship,.
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-13-2021, 12:17 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    The outcome of those repeated demonstrations saw you contradict yourself.
    No I did not contradict myself. The author of Luke uses the general military term to refer to Quirinius as the governor.


    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    You have asked this "question" before, and I have answered it before.
    You have not answered adequately.


    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    You repeatedly demonstrate that you are oblivious to this particular blindingly obvious fact.
    Why do you feel the need to persistently state the obvious?


    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Scant few false claims about the content of the Biblical record originate with secular scholarship, and for the most part, my focus has been on those claims.
    Can you rephrase that please? The sentence you have written appears to contradict itself.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    As your replies repeatedly demonstrate.
    The outcome of those repeated demonstrations saw you contradict yourself.

    What do you mean by a "variant"? Was there a Passover that lasted for 12 days and where the Paschal lobster was eaten?
    You have asked this "question" before, and I have answered it before.

    Well there is nothing like stating the blindingly obvious is there?
    You repeatedly demonstrate that you are oblivious to this particular blindingly obvious fact.

    Premised on our exchanges you simply reject secular academic contentions and historical evidence that challenges your preconceived beliefs.
    Scant few false claims about the content of the Biblical record originate with secular scholarship, and for the most part, my focus has been on those claims.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    I know very little about the fields of archaeology and less about papyrology.
    As your replies repeatedly demonstrate.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    You, on the other hand, did not know until a few days ago that there was more than one variant of Passover celebration in first century Judaea.
    What do you mean by a "variant"? Was there a Passover that lasted for 12 days and where the Paschal lobster was eaten?

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Your knowledge and understanding are far from complete, even within the limits that are available to current scholarship.
    Well there is nothing like stating the blindingly obvious is there?

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    What I can do with a high degree of accuracy is determine when claims that are made about the Biblical record are specious.
    I would disagree. Premised on our exchanges you simply reject secular academic contentions and historical evidence that challenges your preconceived beliefs.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    You do not seem to be acquainted with the disciplines of archaeology and papyrology.

    Does the name Oxyrhynchus mean anything to you?
    I know very little about the fields of archaeology and less about papyrology. You, on the other hand, did not know until a few days ago that there was more than one variant of Passover celebration in first century Judaea. Your knowledge and understanding are far from complete, even within the limits that are available to current scholarship.

    What I can do with a high degree of accuracy is determine when claims that are made about the Biblical record are specious.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    The fact remains that there is no proof to show that he was not a Duumvir. In fact, every creditable source declares that he was.
    Inform yourself about Roman prosopography before making such uninformed comments.


    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    very nice - I'll pinch a copy for future reference. ETA Scratch that - resolution isn't good enough.
    e738c4e4-8474-481a-a134-2e31ac56c800.jpg
    I prefer the bar graph but this conveys the same info.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Sadly, atheist sources are usually secondary. The primary sources are most often well regarded theologians. Some of them are even so convincing that they fall for the nonsense themselves and opt out of Christianity.
    You do not seem to be acquainted with the disciplines of archaeology and papyrology.

    Does the name Oxyrhynchus mean anything to you?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    And in the Samaritan calendar - said by the Samaritans to begin with Israel's entry to the Holy Land - 2014 was their year 3652 (which makes 2021 their year 3659) 2021 - 3659 = -1638. So, the dates derived from the Old Testament (Masoretic Text) records are probably wrong. Records of the event are not thereby demonstrated to be wrong - just the timing extrapolated from the MT text.
    The destruction of Jericho along with certain other texts in the Hebrew bible are foundation myths.

    I recommend you start to educate yourself on the known archaeological history of this region.

    Might I suggest you begin with Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's The Bible Unearthed?

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    There are significant difference between the dating found in the Samaritan, The Masoretic and the Septuagint. I first noticed them while doing a bit of research on the patriarchs. For instance

    This would indicate a fairly fluid tradition for the exact dating that wasn't exactly set in stone.
    very nice - I'll pinch a copy for future reference. ETA Scratch that - resolution isn't good enough.
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-12-2021, 09:53 PM.

    Leave a comment:

Related Threads

Collapse

Topics Statistics Last Post
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 11-27-2021, 06:29 AM
37 responses
247 views
0 likes
Last Post rogue06
by rogue06
 
Started by Cow Poke, 11-01-2021, 08:51 PM
68 responses
354 views
0 likes
Last Post Cow Poke  
Started by eider, 10-24-2021, 01:23 AM
356 responses
1,875 views
0 likes
Last Post DesertBerean  
Started by seer, 10-11-2021, 07:32 PM
460 responses
2,864 views
1 like
Last Post tabibito  
Working...
X