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Ancient Sources: History and Theology.

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  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    How about Jericho?
    What about it?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    It is a fact that there is not a single piece of archeological evidence that contradicts the Bible.
    How about Jericho?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    Yes, I suppose that's why I can present my arguments as a series of unbroken paragraphs instead of picking apart a post sentence fragment by sentence fragment
    :
    It's called analysing the text!

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    It wasn't all that long ago that scoffers such of yourself claimed that Pilate never existed because we had no record of him. That Christian's simply concocted him out of whole cloth.

    Then in the early 60s all of that changed when the "Pilate Stone was uncovered during an archaeological dig at Caesarea Palestinae. And since that time some coins and a ring have been found bearing his name.

    And that is pretty much the extent of the historical record outside of the Bible that we have on him.

    So for you to disdainfully sniff that there is "no extraneous contemporary evidence that Pilate was married at this time" is at the very least disingenuous and likely dishonestly duplicitous. The fact is that we know exceedingly little about Pilate due to a lack of contemporaneous accounts concerning him.

    Moreover, isn't it interesting that we finally uncovered evidence for his existence during our lifetime. I mean, considering that he was the Roman governor of Judea? What I mean is that you have repeatedly demanded all sorts of contemporary documentation for someone you argue "had no impact on the world. He lived and died a nonentity" and then use the scarcity of such material to argue against his existence. But here we have a governor that we didn't have a scrap of documentation about outside of Christian sources.

    So if documentation from Pilate's time that mention him, probably the most important person in the region, were unknown until a little over 50 years ago, why should anyone expect a bunch of documentation concerning Jesus?

    And ironically, even with only the tiny fragments we have, as Warren Carter informs us in Pontius Pilate: Portraits of a Roman Governor, modern scholars know a good deal more about him than about any other of the Roman governors there. Apparently, for some all we have is a name.

    So much for demands for contemporary documents mentioning someone.
    It is a fact that there is not a single piece of archeological evidence that contradicts the Bible. There is much in the Bible for which there is no physical evidence (which is not unexpected for events that happened thousands of years ago), but every time a piece is discovered, it has always supported the Biblical record.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    We have four supposed independent eye-witnesses to the alleged same event i.e. the empty tomb, who went to it and what was found to be there.

    Why do those four accounts differ in their specifics?
    That is exactly what we should expect to see from four separate accounts.




    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    The pericope at 27.19 is not corroborated anywhere else [even in the other gospels] and we have no extraneous contemporary evidence that Pilate was married at this time. There is therefore every rational reason to question the veracity of this account.
    It wasn't all that long ago that scoffers such of yourself claimed that Pilate never existed because we had no record of him. That Christian's simply concocted him out of whole cloth.

    Then in the early 60s all of that changed when the "Pilate Stone was uncovered during an archaeological dig at Caesarea Palestinae. And since that time some coins and a ring have been found bearing his name.

    And that is pretty much the extent of the historical record outside of the Bible that we have on him.

    So for you to disdainfully sniff that there is "no extraneous contemporary evidence that Pilate was married at this time" is at the very least disingenuous and likely dishonestly duplicitous. The fact is that we know exceedingly little about Pilate due to a lack of contemporaneous accounts concerning him.

    Moreover, isn't it interesting that we finally uncovered evidence for his existence during our lifetime. I mean, considering that he was the Roman governor of Judea? What I mean is that you have repeatedly demanded all sorts of contemporary documentation for someone you argue "had no impact on the world. He lived and died a nonentity" and then use the scarcity of such material to argue against his existence. But here we have a governor that we didn't have a scrap of documentation about outside of Christian sources.

    So if documentation from Pilate's time that mention him, probably the most important person in the region, were unknown until a little over 50 years ago, why should anyone expect a bunch of documentation concerning Jesus?

    And ironically, even with only the tiny fragments we have, as Warren Carter informs us in Pontius Pilate: Portraits of a Roman Governor, modern scholars know a good deal more about him than about any other of the Roman governors there. Apparently, for some all we have is a name.

    So much for demands for contemporary documents mentioning someone.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Clearly a university education by-passed you.
    Yes, I suppose that's why I can present my arguments as a series of unbroken paragraphs instead of picking apart a post sentence fragment by sentence fragment and inserting vacuous rejoinders like "You are simply wriggling." Apparently an inability to present a complete train of thought from beginning to end is the mark of the university educated.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Which seems to be the only way you can respond to any argument, taking it on one out-of-context piece at a time instead of addressing the whole of it at once.
    Clearly a university education by-passed you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    I could take it apart section by section...
    Which seems to be the only way you can respond to any argument, taking it on one out-of-context piece at a time instead of addressing the whole of it at once. It's a tiresome and intellectually dishonest debate tactic that gives the false appearance of a rebuttal without actually being a rebuttal and is something I have little patience for.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    I feel like no matter what explanation I give, you're just going to keep asking, "But why? But why?" It's like conversing with a toddler. I've already given you an answer, but to be more specific:

    You say, "Why do those four accounts differ in their specifics?" to which I can only answer, why not? Why do you expect that different people would all report the exact same details?
    If they are all eye witnesses why do their "testimonies" contradict each other as to which specific individuals actually went to the the tomb and what they found when they got there.

    You are simply wriggling.

    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Regarding the timing of the Passover, John does not say that Jesus was interrogated "early on the eve of Passover",
    Yes he does: Then they took Jesus from Caiaphas to Pilate’s headquarters.[g] It was early in the morning. They themselves did not enter the headquarters,[h] so as to avoid ritual defilement and to be able to eat the Passover. 29 So Pilate went out to them and said, “What accusation do you bring against this man?” 30 They answered, “If this man were not a criminal, we would not have handed him over to you.” 31 Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves and judge him according to your law"

    Bear in mind how the Jews define a day.

    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    but, rather, that the Jewish leaders refused to enter the governor's quarters "so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover" (John 18:28). In Jewish tradition, there were actually multiple meals eaten during the time of Passover and not just the Sedar.
    It is these other meals that are likely being referenced. More information here.
    That is what is known as "torturing the text" and is pure speculation.

    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Regarding the supposed ten year discrepancy, I suppose you're referring to when the census took place? At the risk of being accused of arguing by weblink, I will simply direct to you this comprehensive essay by Christian Thinktank's Glenn Miller.
    And that is a confection put together to impress the undiscerning.

    I could take it apart section by section but it would be an extremely detailed and long reply and I doubt you would bother to read it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    No there isn't, you are just making stuff up again.
    This pericope is not referenced anywhere else. That is a fact. It there cannot be cross referenced.



    Originally posted by seer View Post
    And?
    To illustrate the importance of dreams as divine warnings.


    Originally posted by seer View Post
    So? But the point was - there could have been a number of sources for the exchange in question.
    Where are they then? And why do the other three alleged "eye-witnesses" to these events not mention this particular incident?

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    The pericope at 27.19 is not corroborated anywhere else [even in the other gospels] and we have no extraneous contemporary evidence that Pilate was married at this time. There is therefore every rational reason to question the veracity of this account.


    No there isn't, you are just making stuff up again.

    However, this pericope needs to be understood within its context. The interpretation of dreams was another form of divination in the ancient world and dreams were often interpreted to be signs of divine guidance. In Matthew both Joseph [1.20] and the Magi [2.12] have dreams that guide them to certain actions. Joseph receives an angelic messenger in a dream telling him to marry Mary and the Magi are warned in a dream not to return to Herod. They therefore return to their own country "by a different road".
    And?

    That a Gentile woman has such a profound dream wherein she has "suffered a great deal" about Jesus and his innocence only serves to deepen the guilt of the Jewish leaders. That she only knows he is innocent because of her dream lends further emphasis to this dream being a divine intervention. Hence it is not Pilate's wife but God [through this Gentile woman] who testifies to Jesus' righteousness.
    So? But the point was - there could have been a number of sources for the exchange in question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    We have four supposed independent eye-witnesses to the alleged same event i.e. the empty tomb, who went to it and what was found to be there.

    Why do those four accounts differ in their specifics?

    Why do these same alleged eye-witnesses not agree on when the interrogation with Pilate took place? The Synoptics writers tell us it was after Passover. John writes it was on early on the eve of Passover.

    Why is there a ten year discrepancy between the two birth narratives?
    I feel like no matter what explanation I give, you're just going to keep asking, "But why? But why?" It's like conversing with a toddler. I've already given you an answer, but to be more specific:

    You say, "Why do those four accounts differ in their specifics?" to which I can only answer, why not? Why do you expect that different people would all report the exact same details?

    Regarding the timing of the Passover, John does not say that Jesus was interrogated "early on the eve of Passover", but, rather, that the Jewish leaders refused to enter the governor's quarters "so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover" (John 18:28). In Jewish tradition, there were actually multiple meals eaten during the time of Passover and not just the Sedar. It is these other meals that are likely being referenced. More information here.

    Regarding the supposed ten year discrepancy, I suppose you're referring to when the census took place? At the risk of being accused of arguing by weblink, I will simply direct to you this comprehensive essay by Christian Thinktank's Glenn Miller.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    If I say, "On Thursday night, I went to Bob's house," and then later say, "On Thursday night, I went out with my wife," and then still later say, "On Thursday night, I watched 2001: A Space Odyssey," are those necessarily contradictions, or are they merely different details about the exact same event? Or suppose I relate a conversation I had with my friend Gary. I say, "Gary asked me if I knew how to knit. I said no." He relates it as, "We spent hours talking about the films of Stanley Kubrick, and then the topic of knitting somehow came up. I asked Mountain Man if he knew how to knit, and he just laughed at me." Again, necessarily contradictory, or merely different details about the exact same event?
    We have four supposed independent eye-witnesses to the alleged same event i.e. the empty tomb, who went to it and what was found to be there.

    Why do those four accounts differ in their specifics?

    Why do these same alleged eye-witnesses not agree on when the interrogation with Pilate took place? The Synoptics writers tell us it was after Passover. John writes it was on early on the eve of Passover.

    Why is there a ten year discrepancy between the two birth narratives?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    You are not making sense. You have no rational reason to doubt Matthew's account.
    The pericope at 27.19 is not corroborated anywhere else [even in the other gospels] and we have no extraneous contemporary evidence that Pilate was married at this time. There is therefore every rational reason to question the veracity of this account.


    However, this pericope needs to be understood within its context. The interpretation of dreams was another form of divination in the ancient world and dreams were often interpreted to be signs of divine guidance. In Matthew both Joseph [1.20] and the Magi [2.12] have dreams that guide them to certain actions. Joseph receives an angelic messenger in a dream telling him to marry Mary and the Magi are warned in a dream not to return to Herod. They therefore return to their own country "by a different road".

    That a Gentile woman has such a profound dream wherein she has "suffered a great deal" about Jesus and his innocence only serves to deepen the guilt of the Jewish leaders. That she only knows he is innocent because of her dream lends further emphasis to this dream being a divine intervention. Hence it is not Pilate's wife but God [through this Gentile woman] who testifies to Jesus' righteousness.
    Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 05-12-2021, 04:38 AM.

    Leave a comment:

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