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  • And an earthquake in a region prone to seismic activity. Obviously impossible. And even more impossible to have one take place around the time of Jesus' crucifixion[1].

    Moreover, several scholars have noted that the word σεισμος and translated as "earthquake" here actually signifying any kind of shaking, whether in the earth, air, or sea (for instance in Matthew 8:24 it is translated as meaning "tempest" or "storm." IOW, the word here might be better understood to be a large storm.

    Finally, IMHO, Matthew described not something that was witnessed but rather inferred it from what they saw as the various translations such as the NASB make clearer by stating

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 28:2
    And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone, and sat upon it
    A severe and localised quake resulting from a stone being rolled away from the tomb, and (presumably) falling over? How could that possibly happen where the bedrock is limestone? I do wonder.

    Why was it that the earth quaked again? Oh yes, "for an angel of the Lord came and ..."
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2021, 04:09 PM.
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      A severe and localised quake resulting from a stone being rolled away from the tomb, and (presumably) falling over? How could that possibly happen where the bedrock is limestone? I do wonder.
      Why?

      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Why was it that the earth quaked again? Oh yes, "for an angel of the Lord came and ..."
      It is a story. It adds "colour and texture".

      Furthermore, why do the other three accounts not mention this seismic event?
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • What caused the ground to quake? Where is the seismic event of yours mentioned?
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          What caused the ground to quake? Where is the seismic event of yours mentioned?
          According to Matthew 28 this event heralded an angel's appearance. However, if a 21st century individual believes that they will, presumably, believe anything.
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • Hypatia_Alexandria

            LSJ: σεισμ-ός , , ( σείω ) shaking, shock , γῆς ς . earthquake , E. HF 862 , Th. 3.87 ; χθονός E. IT 1166 : abs., Hdt. 4.28 , 5.85 , 7.129 , S. OC 95 , Ar. Ec. 791 , Th. 1.23 , etc.
            2. generally, shock, agitation, commotion , ς. τοῦ σώματος

            BDAG: σεισμός, οῦ, ὁ (σείω; Eur. et al. in var. senses)a violent shaking or commotion, shock,
            agitation, in our lit. only of natural phenomena, w. the specific type qualified by context

            Qualified by context: αγγελος γαρ κυριου καταβας εξ ουρανου προσελθων απεκυλισεν τον λιθον for an angel of the Lord having descended from heaven, having arrived, rolled away the stone…”
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              Hypatia_Alexandria

              LSJ: σεισμ-ός , , ( σείω ) shaking, shock , γῆς ς . earthquake , E. HF 862 , Th. 3.87 ; χθονός E. IT 1166 : abs., Hdt. 4.28 , 5.85 , 7.129 , S. OC 95 , Ar. Ec. 791 , Th. 1.23 , etc.
              2. generally, shock, agitation, commotion , ς. τοῦ σώματος

              BDAG: σεισμός, οῦ, ὁ (σείω; Eur. et al. in var. senses)a violent shaking or commotion, shock,
              agitation, in our lit. only of natural phenomena, w. the specific type qualified by context

              Qualified by context: αγγελος γαρ κυριου καταβας εξ ουρανου προσελθων απεκυλισεν τον λιθον for an angel of the Lord having descended from heaven, having arrived, rolled away the stone…”
              Firstly no other gospel writer mentions this miraculous event and secondly, as previously noted, if someone in the 21st century really believes an angel came down, caused an earthquake, and moved a stone, they will, presumably, believe anything.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                Firstly no other gospel writer mentions this miraculous event and secondly, as previously noted, if someone in the 21st century really believes an angel came down, caused an earthquake, and moved a stone, they will, presumably, believe anything.

                People are free to accept or reject Matthew's record according to their own assessments. As you have noted, there is no collaborating evidence. But this earthquake of yours: where is it? It is not in Matthew's record.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  But this earthquake of yours: where is it? It is not in Matthew's record.
                  Matthew 28.2

                  καὶ ἰδοὺ σεισμὸς ἐγένετο μέγας ἄγγελος γὰρ κυρίου καταβὰς ἐξ οὐρα νοῦ καὶ προσελθὼν ἀπεκύλισεν τὸν λίθον καὶ ἐκάθητο ἐπάνω αὐτοῦ.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    Matthew 28.2

                    καὶ ἰδοὺ σεισμὸς ἐγένετο μέγας ἄγγελος γὰρ κυρίου καταβὰς ἐξ οὐρα νοῦ καὶ προσελθὼν ἀπεκύλισεν τὸν λίθον καὶ ἐκάθητο ἐπάνω αὐτοῦ.
                    And you think that is a record of an earthquake? ... 可哀そうな

                    To repeat my earlier post (#186)

                    Qualified by context: αγγελος γαρ κυριου καταβας εξ ουρανου προσελθων απεκυλισεν τον λιθον for an angel of the Lord having descended from heaven, having arrived, rolled away the stone…”

                    Do you perhaps think that the addition of accents changes the meaning?
                    Last edited by tabibito; 07-02-2021, 09:59 AM.
                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      And you think that is a record of an earthquake? ... 可哀そうな

                      To repeat my earlier post (#186)

                      Qualified by context: αγγελος γαρ κυριου καταβας εξ ουρανου προσελθων απεκυλισεν τον λιθον for an angel of the Lord having descended from heaven, having arrived, rolled away the stone…”

                      Do you perhaps think that the addition of accents changes the meaning?
                      Well certainly rogue06 is of that opinion:


                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      As I noted, the region is prone to seismic activity thanks to the proximity of the Dead Sea Rift Valley. In his Patterns of Seismic Sequences in the Levant -- Interpretation of Historical Seismicity Amos Salamon reveals that the area experiences tremors there on a virtually yearly basis. And many are large scale. IIRC, Josephus, in his Jewish War, even mentioned one which hit Judea resulting in tens of thousands of deaths. In fact, the late anthropologist and archaeologist Kenneth Russell examined the evidence for roughly a hundred major earthquakes in the region and reported in The Earthquake Chronology of Palestine and Northwest Arabia from the 2nd Through the Mid-8th Century A. D that 71 of them were centered in the Judea-Samaria region.

                      So the idea of an earthquake taking place is far from preposterous.
                      See post #103
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                        Well certainly rogue06 is of that opinion:


                        See post #103
                        Actually, as the post notes, I said that "the idea of an earthquake taking place is far from preposterous." Apparently, there must be too subtle of a difference between saying that "the idea of an earthquake taking place is far from preposterous" and saying that it did happen for you to discern any difference.

                        And FWICT, he asked you what you thought not what you believe that I think.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Actually, as the post notes, I said that "the idea of an earthquake taking place is far from preposterous." Apparently, there must be too subtle of a difference between saying that "the idea of an earthquake taking place is far from preposterous" and saying that it did happen for you to discern any difference.

                          And FWICT, he asked you what you thought not what you believe that I think.
                          Far from preposterous yes, but the text isn't pointing to a seismic event. It simply says that rolling the rock away from the tomb caused the ground to quake. Given that the area is mostly limestone, that is an expected outcome.
                          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Far from preposterous yes, but the text isn't pointing to a seismic event. It simply says that rolling the rock away from the tomb caused the ground to quake. Given that the area is mostly limestone, that is an expected outcome.
                            H_A snipped off the rest of the post where I continued to discuss the possible earthquake recounted by Matthew where I discussed other possibilities. Here's the rest:

                            Further, it appears that core samples of earth near Ein Gedi, just to the west of the Dead Sea a decade ago revealed that an earthquake did indeed took place around the estimated time of Jesus' crucifixion

                            Moreover, several scholars have noted that the word σεισμος and translated as "earthquake" here actually signifying any kind of shaking, whether in the earth, air, or sea (for instance in Matthew 8:24 it is translated as meaning "tempest" or "storm.") IOW, the word here might be better understood to signify a large storm.

                            Finally, IMHO, Matthew described not something that was witnessed but rather inferred it from what they saw as the various translations such as the NASB make clearer by stating

                            Scripture Verse: Matthew 28:2

                            And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone, and sat upon it

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            [*Bolding added by rogue06*]

                            Weymouth New Testament translates the passage as

                            Scripture Verse: Matthew 28:2

                            But to their amazement there had been a great earthquake

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Please note how this would also indicate that the women inferred that the angel descended from Heaven, not that they witnessed it.

                            It should be noted that in his Gospel Matthew appears to largely emphasize what happened and tends to group his information by theme (topical arrangement) and isn't too concerned with exact chronological order. For example, he mentioned the women coming to the tomb in the first verse, but then makes these comments as an aside -- this is what had happened prior to women arriving.


                            Now, as to whether there were men or angels there and just how many of them were there (one or two)...


                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              H_A snipped off the rest of the post where I continued to discuss the possible earthquake recounted by Matthew where I discussed other possibilities. Here's the rest:
                              You say that as though I should find it unexpected.

                              σεισμος εγενετο - True, the aorist can indicate a pluperfect, but the syntax isn't right for that. It is a simple past construct. εγενετο can interpreted in a variety of ways, often "it came to pass," "it came about that," "as it happened," etc. That said, Matthew's story line does indicate that the women arrived after the event. Assuming that Matthew's report was accurate, the women would have been close enough to hear the stone being rolled away and feel the resulting tremor, but not have the tomb in view at the time. Then they arrive at the tomb, find the stone gone from its mouth, and put two and two together. Other scenarios are possible, but that would be the simplest explanation for Matthews report on events - the women recounted their experience, and he recorded the basics.
                              As for the angel - according to Matthew's report, he was sitting on the stone when they arrived, with the guards still shaking in fear. The last indicates that only a very short time had passed between the stone being rolled away and the women's arrival. "Shaking in fear" tends to be a short term experience.
                              Last edited by tabibito; 07-02-2021, 02:29 PM.
                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Actually, as the post notes, I said that "the idea of an earthquake taking place is far from preposterous." Apparently, there must be too subtle of a difference between saying that "the idea of an earthquake taking place is far from preposterous" and saying that it did happen for you to discern any difference.

                                And FWICT, he asked you what you thought not what you believe that I think.
                                Well I think angels descending from heaven, causing earthquakes, and rolling away stones to be nothing more than pious fiction composed for literary dramatic effect.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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