Originally posted by Mountain Man
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Existential nihilism?
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Originally posted by Machinist View PostHow is saying that having an Absolute Moral Standard (in the case, God) a superior position? Isn't appeal to authority in and of itself a logical fallacy?
Whereas not having that to fall back on, you're left having to muddle through and actually give it some thought and consideration- all the time being told by people who believe in this ultimate being and ultimate consequences (words like objective or ultimate are very important as they're meant to sound impressive) tell you that you have no 'foundation' for anything.
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Originally posted by Machinist View PostHow is saying that having an Absolute Moral Standard (in the case, God) a superior position? Isn't appeal to authority in and of itself a logical fallacy?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by EvoUK View PostWhereas not having that to fall back on, you're left having to muddle through and actually give it some thought and consideration- all the time being told by people who believe in this ultimate being and ultimate consequences (words like objective or ultimate are very important as they're meant to sound impressive) tell you that you have no 'foundation' for anything.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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"Why do you need 'ultimate consequences' to live your life in any sort of moral sense?" - EvoUK
"It's not about need, it's about what is. I can only accept reality as it exists and respond accordingly". - Mountain Man
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EvoUK,
Above is a snippet from a few pages back between you and MM. What do you say about MM's statement? Especially the embolden part? I thought it seemed to wrap things up here.
I can appreciate when you say "If there's some perfect unassailable being who is defined as ultimate everything who says do this or that, then it can be considered more convenient or easier (in the case that it doesn't really require much thought) to nod along and do it at the threat to your mortal soul"...and that this is an easier position, but ultimately, isn't an unassailable standard what ultimately, is? Doesn't it necessarily follow that to say something is moral or immoral, it has to be in reference to something that is unchanging?
Also, I would say that it is not an easier position. It begins with fear, and that is not easy to deal with. To ponder and reflect upon the mind of the Alpha and the Omega as to your own personal choices and decisions in life can be an existentially frightful experience.
Last edited by Machinist; 04-30-2021, 03:52 PM.
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Originally posted by Machinist View Post"Why do you need 'ultimate consequences' to live your life in any sort of moral sense?" - EvoUK
"It's not about need, it's about what is. I can only accept reality as it exists and respond accordingly". - Mountain Man
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________
EvoUK,
Above is a snippet from a few pages back between you and MM. What do you say about MM's statement? Especially the embolden part? I thought it seemed to wrap things up here.
I can appreciate when you say "If there's some perfect unassailable being who is defined as ultimate everything who says do this or that, then it can be considered more convenient or easier (in the case that it doesn't really require much thought) to nod along and do it at the threat to your mortal soul"...and that this is an easier position, but ultimately, isn't an unassailable standard what ultimately, is? Doesn't it necessarily follow that to say something is moral or immoral, it has to be in reference to something that is unchanging?
Also, I would say that it is not an easier position. It begins with fear, and that is not easy to deal with. To ponder and reflect upon the mind of the Alpha and the Omega as to your own personal choices and decisions in life can be an existentially frightful experience.
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Yeah it's hard to articulate. Sometimes I think I understand it and sometimes I don't.
This is the point where I would like to study Logic. I have found these videos here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSOMooImPWQ
If you get a chance, tell me your opinion of this video series. Somewhere down in there, I would assume, one would find the Unassailable Standard.
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou need to be specific Star, what do you disagree with? Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. What exactly do you object to?
You're making fundamental conceptual errors in ascribing mental phenomena to the physical universe.
Meaning exists in the mind, like emotions. You trying to look for meaning in the universe is like a man thinking the location where anger is located might be up a distance mountain or on a far off sea. Your whole way of talking about this is conceptually flawed.
Is there emotion in the universe? Yes. A great deal, because there are and have been billions of humans who have experienced many different emotions. Is there meaning in the universe? Yes. A great deal, because there are and have been billions of humans who have found meaning in so many different things and in so many different ways, through experiences, through relationships, through emotions, through things they have seen and things they have heard.
Minds exist. And because minds exist, meaning exists, emotions exists. Minds ascribe and create meaning and value. The universe has great meaning because it contains a great number of minds finding meaning in things. If the universe had no minds to find meaning in their experiences in it then it would have no meaning."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI think you're making so many different mistakes that it's hard to explain.
You're making fundamental conceptual errors in ascribing mental phenomena to the physical universe.
Meaning exists in the mind, like emotions. You trying to look for meaning in the universe is like a man thinking the location where anger is located might be up a distance mountain or on a far off sea. Your whole way of talking about this is conceptually flawed.
Is there emotion in the universe? Yes. A great deal, because there are and have been billions of humans who have experienced many different emotions. Is there meaning in the universe? Yes. A great deal, because there are and have been billions of humans who have found meaning in so many different things and in so many different ways, through experiences, through relationships, through emotions, through things they have seen and things they have heard.
Minds exist. And because minds exist, meaning exists, emotions exists. Minds ascribe and create meaning and value. The universe has great meaning because it contains a great number of minds finding meaning in things. If the universe had no minds to find meaning in their experiences in it then it would have no meaning.
According to the theory, each individual is an isolated being born into the universe, barred from knowing 'why'. The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create their own subjective 'meaning' or 'purpose'. Of all types of nihilism, existential nihilism has received the most literary and philosophical attention.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAccording to the theory, each individual is an isolated being born into the universe,
barred from knowing 'why'.
The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create their own subjective 'meaning' or 'purpose'."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWe aren't isolated beings though, we have families, friends, communities, nations, etc, and those form part of our sense of identity. Humans are communal.
I have no idea what your quote is even trying to express here.
Given I said I agree with no part of nihilism, I don't get what the point is of re-quoting the definition at me.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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