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Existential nihilism?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    If atheism is true then it is not merely possible, it is inevitable. The universe simply doesn't care what we do. Feeling guilt for any shortcoming we might perceive in ourselves is irrational because nothing we do will matter to us once we're dead. Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
    You're merely repeating yourself. If you have something else to add other than you don't like it or would prefer if there were 'ultimate consequences' to ones life then please do share, otherwise this has already been dealt with several times by myself and others, most recently in my last post to you which you missed out of your response.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
      You're merely repeating yourself.
      Only because you have yet to produce a valid rebuttal.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Only because you have yet to produce a valid rebuttal.
        If you wish to take it apart then you're free to do so, but I'm not sure why you're pretending it doesn't exist and editing it out of all your replies.

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        • #64
          How is saying that having an Absolute Moral Standard (in the case, God) a superior position? Isn't appeal to authority in and of itself a logical fallacy?

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Machinist View Post
            How is saying that having an Absolute Moral Standard (in the case, God) a superior position? Isn't appeal to authority in and of itself a logical fallacy?
            I'd actually say it could arguably considered an easier or more convenient position. If there's some perfect unassailable being who is defined as ultimate everything who says do this or that, then it can be considered more convenient or easier (in the case that it doesn't really require much thought) to nod along and do it at the threat to your mortal soul.

            Whereas not having that to fall back on, you're left having to muddle through and actually give it some thought and consideration- all the time being told by people who believe in this ultimate being and ultimate consequences (words like objective or ultimate are very important as they're meant to sound impressive) tell you that you have no 'foundation' for anything.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Machinist View Post
              How is saying that having an Absolute Moral Standard (in the case, God) a superior position? Isn't appeal to authority in and of itself a logical fallacy?
              It really isn't an appeal to authority, though it comes with exacting authority. It is an appeal to an absolute, universal standard of goodness. God's moral nature.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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              • #67
                Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
                Whereas not having that to fall back on, you're left having to muddle through and actually give it some thought and consideration- all the time being told by people who believe in this ultimate being and ultimate consequences (words like objective or ultimate are very important as they're meant to sound impressive) tell you that you have no 'foundation' for anything.
                There really isn't anything to muddle through is there Evo.It is all quite clear. Either all morality is relative or there are universal, binding moral truths. No amount of thought or consideration changes that...

                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                • #68
                  "Why do you need 'ultimate consequences' to live your life in any sort of moral sense?" - EvoUK


                  "It's not about need, it's about what is. I can only accept reality as it exists and respond accordingly". - Mountain Man
                  __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________

                  EvoUK,

                  Above is a snippet from a few pages back between you and MM. What do you say about MM's statement? Especially the embolden part? I thought it seemed to wrap things up here.

                  I can appreciate when you say "If there's some perfect unassailable being who is defined as ultimate everything who says do this or that, then it can be considered more convenient or easier (in the case that it doesn't really require much thought) to nod along and do it at the threat to your mortal soul"...and that this is an easier position, but ultimately, isn't an unassailable standard what ultimately, is? Doesn't it necessarily follow that to say something is moral or immoral, it has to be in reference to something that is unchanging?


                  Also, I would say that it is not an easier position. It begins with fear, and that is not easy to deal with. To ponder and reflect upon the mind of the Alpha and the Omega as to your own personal choices and decisions in life can be an existentially frightful experience.


                  Last edited by Machinist; 04-30-2021, 03:52 PM.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                    "Why do you need 'ultimate consequences' to live your life in any sort of moral sense?" - EvoUK


                    "It's not about need, it's about what is. I can only accept reality as it exists and respond accordingly". - Mountain Man
                    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________

                    EvoUK,

                    Above is a snippet from a few pages back between you and MM. What do you say about MM's statement? Especially the embolden part? I thought it seemed to wrap things up here.
                    I'd argue that there's no reason to assume 'ultimate consequences' exist, outside of specific belief systems which presume it to be the case. With that in mind, his comment made no sense as it's simply a statement of his religious beliefs which are (if I'm being generous) unknowable, not a statement of fact of which we do actually know - such as my original quote in my first post.

                    I can appreciate when you say "If there's some perfect unassailable being who is defined as ultimate everything who says do this or that, then it can be considered more convenient or easier (in the case that it doesn't really require much thought) to nod along and do it at the threat to your mortal soul"...and that this is an easier position, but ultimately, isn't an unassailable standard what ultimately, is? Doesn't it necessarily follow that to say something is moral or immoral, it has to be in reference to something that is unchanging?
                    No, I do not see why that needs to be the case. It is trivially observable fact for example that moral norms change across societies and across time. I'd argue that everyone has the same basis for reality and moral standards and truths, but some people like to pretend theirs is in someway 'objective' or 'ultimate' (again, important language is key here) to make their case unassailable. They can then sit back and continue to ask over simplistic questions whilst responding to all queries about their own with regards to a unknowable and unprovable 'objective' or 'ultimate' lawgiver.

                    Also, I would say that it is not an easier position. It begins with fear, and that is not easy to deal with. To ponder and reflect upon the mind of the Alpha and the Omega as to your own personal choices and decisions in life can be an existentially frightful experience.
                    I don't believe in their deity any more than any other, so considering the aspects of a (in my opinion) fictional being is not scary. Comparing yourself and your experiences with the vastness of the universe is somewhat humbling, however.

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                    • #70
                      Yeah it's hard to articulate. Sometimes I think I understand it and sometimes I don't.

                      This is the point where I would like to study Logic. I have found these videos here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSOMooImPWQ

                      If you get a chance, tell me your opinion of this video series. Somewhere down in there, I would assume, one would find the Unassailable Standard.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        You need to be specific Star, what do you disagree with? Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. What exactly do you object to?
                        I think you're making so many different mistakes that it's hard to explain.

                        You're making fundamental conceptual errors in ascribing mental phenomena to the physical universe.

                        Meaning exists in the mind, like emotions. You trying to look for meaning in the universe is like a man thinking the location where anger is located might be up a distance mountain or on a far off sea. Your whole way of talking about this is conceptually flawed.

                        Is there emotion in the universe? Yes. A great deal, because there are and have been billions of humans who have experienced many different emotions. Is there meaning in the universe? Yes. A great deal, because there are and have been billions of humans who have found meaning in so many different things and in so many different ways, through experiences, through relationships, through emotions, through things they have seen and things they have heard.

                        Minds exist. And because minds exist, meaning exists, emotions exists. Minds ascribe and create meaning and value. The universe has great meaning because it contains a great number of minds finding meaning in things. If the universe had no minds to find meaning in their experiences in it then it would have no meaning.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          I think you're making so many different mistakes that it's hard to explain.

                          You're making fundamental conceptual errors in ascribing mental phenomena to the physical universe.

                          Meaning exists in the mind, like emotions. You trying to look for meaning in the universe is like a man thinking the location where anger is located might be up a distance mountain or on a far off sea. Your whole way of talking about this is conceptually flawed.

                          Is there emotion in the universe? Yes. A great deal, because there are and have been billions of humans who have experienced many different emotions. Is there meaning in the universe? Yes. A great deal, because there are and have been billions of humans who have found meaning in so many different things and in so many different ways, through experiences, through relationships, through emotions, through things they have seen and things they have heard.

                          Minds exist. And because minds exist, meaning exists, emotions exists. Minds ascribe and create meaning and value. The universe has great meaning because it contains a great number of minds finding meaning in things. If the universe had no minds to find meaning in their experiences in it then it would have no meaning.
                          The definition was not about subjective meaning, if you went to the link it speaks to that. But about intrinsic meaning:

                          According to the theory, each individual is an isolated being born into the universe, barred from knowing 'why'. The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create their own subjective 'meaning' or 'purpose'. Of all types of nihilism, existential nihilism has received the most literary and philosophical attention.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            According to the theory, each individual is an isolated being born into the universe,
                            We aren't isolated beings though, we have families, friends, communities, nations, etc, and those form part of our sense of identity. Humans are communal.

                            barred from knowing 'why'.
                            I have no idea what your quote is even trying to express here.

                            The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create their own subjective 'meaning' or 'purpose'.
                            Given I said I agree with no part of nihilism, I don't get what the point is of re-quoting the definition at me.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              We aren't isolated beings though, we have families, friends, communities, nations, etc, and those form part of our sense of identity. Humans are communal.
                              Somehow I think you missed the point.

                              I have no idea what your quote is even trying to express here.
                              Why was humanity created? Is there any overall purpose for human life?

                              Given I said I agree with no part of nihilism, I don't get what the point is of re-quoting the definition at me.
                              Then what is the INHERENT meaning of life? And the point of the quote was to show that existential nihilism does take into consideration the subjective meaning you were speaking of. Of course we can create our own meaning but that does not change the definition.



                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

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