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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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  • #46
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Are we doing something about China and their blatant human rights abuse? No, we just keep trading with them and making them richer/stronger.
    We can stop buying things from China if we want to. We can also try to influence government policies.

    We would have moral and physical chaos. And I believe that heavenly laws are just as important as earthly laws - even more so since nothing could escape the gaze of an omniscient God. It would mean the difference between living in an amoral universe or a moral universe.
    It would be even better if there was a God who openly gave us a small punishment immediately, so that we could learn to do better, rather than one who just threatens us with infinite punishment after we're dead. Or even better, a God who keeps us from doing bad things in the first place.

    But the fact that it would be better does not mean that it is the case.

    That does not change what I said. The idea of judgement in the afterlife seems to be universal. And I'm not sure how much we want that to be true. The idea that there is something out there that we are accountable to, and that on a deep level we are not right with that something. Again, I see not good reason to doubt this universal and intuitive sense found in mankind.
    You see no reason to doubt it, and I see no reason to believe it.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Stoic View Post

      We can stop buying things from China if we want to. We can also try to influence government policies.
      But no one is really even trying to do either.

      It would be even better if there was a God who openly gave us a small punishment immediately, so that we could learn to do better, rather than one who just threatens us with infinite punishment after we're dead. Or even better, a God who keeps us from doing bad things in the first place.
      Since God wants us to freely love Him and our fellow man I wonder if your above suggestions would simply turn us into automatons or trained dogs. And punishment is not about eliciting love from His creatures, but the natural consequence of rejecting the source of goodness and life. If you are connected to His everlasting life, you share in that life. If you reject it, you are separated from civil society.

      You see no reason to doubt it, and I see no reason to believe it.
      Why would you doubt such a universal belief?

      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        But no one is really even trying to do either.
        Maybe they don't think we should try to be the world's policeman.

        Since God wants us to freely love Him and our fellow man I wonder if your above suggestions would simply turn us into automatons or trained dogs. And punishment is not about eliciting love from His creatures, but the natural consequence of rejecting the source of goodness and life. If you are connected to His everlasting life, you share in that life. If you reject it, you are separated from civil society.
        If the ultimate punishment that we are told about (but given no evidence for) is a good thing (because it makes us behave better), then punishment that we know is coming would be even better.

        My point is that it being a good thing is no reason to believe it is true.

        Why would you doubt such a universal belief?
        I don't doubt the belief. I doubt that it is true.

        And I don't think it is as universal as you do. If it was, people would probably behave better than they do.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Stoic View Post
          Maybe they don't think we should try to be the world's policeman.
          Well that kind of undermines your original point.


          If the ultimate punishment that we are told about (but given no evidence for) is a good thing (because it makes us behave better), then punishment that we know is coming would be even better.
          The ultimate punishment simply tells us that we live in a just universe. And that it should give us cause to reflect, it does not necessarily cause us or compel us to love God or or fellow man.

          My point is that it being a good thing is no reason to believe it is true.
          Or any reason to not believe it is true.

          I don't doubt the belief. I doubt that it is true.
          I try to doubt my doubts...

          And I don't think it is as universal as you do. If it was, people would probably behave better than they do.
          Then you haven't studied world religions that much. And perhaps men would be much worse without these beliefs.

          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Well that kind of undermines your original point.
            I don't know what you thought my original point was, but I'm guessing you misunderstood it.

            The ultimate punishment simply tells us that we live in a just universe. And that it should give us cause to reflect, it does not necessarily cause us or compel us to love God or or fellow man.
            I would expect it to work better if there was some evidence for it.

            Or any reason to not believe it is true.
            I don't need reasons to not believe something is true. The lack of a reason to believe it to be true is enough.

            I try to doubt my doubts...
            Okay...

            Then you haven't studied world religions that much. And perhaps men would be much worse without these beliefs.
            All I really know is how I behave even though I don't have that belief. If that belief was nearly universal, and effective at improving people's behavior, then there wouldn't be so many people behaving worse than I do.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Stoic View Post
              I don't know what you thought my original point was, but I'm guessing you misunderstood it.


              I would expect it to work better if there was some evidence for it.


              I don't need reasons to not believe something is true. The lack of a reason to believe it to be true is enough.


              Okay...


              All I really know is how I behave even though I don't have that belief. If that belief was nearly universal, and effective at improving people's behavior, then there wouldn't be so many people behaving worse than I do.
              OK Stoic, I will leave you with the last word - another good chat, thanks!
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                It's not about need, it's about what is. I can only accept reality as it exists and respond accordingly.
                Quite, the section of the video I quoted earlier sums up what we currently know about reality and the universe itself, and I can only base my views on what I know to be true.


                Why would that scare me? If I'm wrong, there are no ultimate consequences for anything. What I can't understand is the atheist who paradoxically tries to live as if life has some greater meaning.
                This is the bit you refuse to accept - life doesn't have to have 'ultimate consequences' in order for there to be meaning. You may not like that, or would rather that life had ultimate consequences, but you wanting it to be true doesn't make it true - a point Stoic has also been making since I see.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by seer View Post

                  I asked why we need laws in the first place? In other words, if temporal judgements, which are often ineffectual, can help to curtail crime, why wouldn't the specter of a perfect, exact judgement in the afterlife be more effective in modifying behavior? If men really believed that to be the case?
                  We have what we have. Stoic I note has made the same point - even if I grant for the sake of argument that having an afterlife with judgement would be better, it doesn't make it so.


                  But that is you, you who grew up in the embers of a Christian culture. What if you were raised in Mao's China?


                  If you grew up in a country dominated by another religion you wouldn't be a Christian, your point seems a banal one.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

                    We have what we have. Stoic I note has made the same point - even if I grant for the sake of argument that having an afterlife with judgement would be better, it doesn't make it so.
                    And like I said, nearly universally mankind has intuitively suspected that there was some form of justice beyond the temporal. Perhaps our primitive selves were more in tune with reality than the modern man. Just a thought.

                    If you grew up in a country dominated by another religion you wouldn't be a Christian, your point seems a banal one.
                    Sure that is possible. But that has nothing to say about whether my religion is true or not. But since morality is relative with atheism your moral sense is largely due to the infusion of Christian ethics through out the centuries in the West. And deviating from Christian moral doctrine only means that you are thrown back to relativism and who knows where that will lead.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

                      Quite, the section of the video I quoted earlier sums up what we currently know about reality and the universe itself, and I can only base my views on what I know to be true.


                      This is the bit you refuse to accept - life doesn't have to have 'ultimate consequences' in order for there to be meaning. You may not like that, or would rather that life had ultimate consequences, but you wanting it to be true doesn't make it true - a point Stoic has also been making since I see.
                      Reality is much bigger than what science can tell us.

                      The question is, if there are no ultimate consequences then what will it matter in 100 years what we do today? 1000 years? 1,000,000,000 years? As your video says, we have no consciousness of what happened in the eons before we existed, and we will have no consciousness of the eons that follow, so what do our actions in the here and now really matter? Whatever we do, it will inevitably be forgotten, and the universe will carry on as if we never existed.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seer View Post

                        And like I said, nearly universally mankind has intuitively suspected that there was some form of justice beyond the temporal. Perhaps our primitive selves were more in tune with reality than the modern man. Just a thought.
                        Mankind has historically always tried to make sense of the world with the information they had available to them. I do not find it shocking that our primitive ancestors included an afterlife and/or judgement alongside their other various deities and supernatural creatures.

                        Sure that is possible. But that has nothing to say about whether my religion is true or not.
                        I guess we'll never know.

                        But since morality is relative with atheism your moral sense is largely due to the infusion of Christian ethics through out the centuries in the West. And deviating from Christian moral doctrine only means that you are thrown back to relativism and who knows where that will lead.
                        You said yourself this isn't a morality thread. I am sure you can find someone in one of those threads with the patience to discuss it further with you, unfortunately I don't have the time to go around and around with you as I've seen happen historically, nor do I have anything to add which you haven't heard before from other posters.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                          Reality is much bigger than what science can tell us.
                          I don't know what this even means. If you simply mean that despite how unutterably huge the known observable universe is, it could well be even larger we just can't see it and will never know then fine - I said as much in my first post so this is not news. If you mean that to be some dig at science in general then I'm afraid I do know what you mean, specifically.

                          The question is, if there are no ultimate consequences then what will it matter in 100 years what we do today? 1000 years? 1,000,000,000 years? As your video says, we have no consciousness of what happened in the eons before we existed, and we will have no consciousness of the eons that follow, so what do our actions in the here and now really matter? Whatever we do, it will inevitably be forgotten, and the universe will carry on as if we never existed.
                          All of that is quite possible.

                          That you'd clearly rather that it be otherwise does not make it so, unfortunately. Given that fact I am not sure why you keep bringing it up - it has no bearing on the factualness or otherwise of the concept.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

                            Mankind has historically always tried to make sense of the world with the information they had available to them. I do not find it shocking that our primitive ancestors included an afterlife and/or judgement alongside their other various deities and supernatural creatures.
                            You assume that this explains the phenomenon, but why? Perhaps our instinctual sense is correct.

                            I guess we'll never know.
                            Well according to me beliefs we will all know.

                            You said yourself this isn't a morality thread. I am sure you can find someone in one of those threads with the patience to discuss it further with you, unfortunately I don't have the time to go around and around with you as I've seen happen historically, nor do I have anything to add which you haven't heard before from other posters.
                            OK...

                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              You assume that this explains the phenomenon, but why? Perhaps our instinctual sense is correct.
                              Perhaps, but I think that there's no logical or evidence-based reason to assume it is the case, not least because of the variations of afterlife believed at one point or another.

                              What we know about the world around us and universe at large has been summed up in the short video I linked earlier, which I also quoted for ease. Anything regarding afterlives, souls, gods, sprites and others we (at best) cannot know or have no way of knowing.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
                                All of that is quite possible.
                                If atheism is true then it is not merely possible, it is inevitable. The universe simply doesn't care what we do. Feeling guilt for any shortcoming we might perceive in ourselves is irrational because nothing we do will matter to us once we're dead. Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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