Richard Dawkins stripped of 1996 Humanist of the Year Award...

[Machinist]

That's it. Who are you and what have you done to H_A? You are being far too reasonable here.

Either that or it is time to keep an eye out for these guys




4Horsemen.gif

What about men born with feminine traits and features , or females born with male traits and features. Isn't there such a thing as a person having both sexes even?


Also, where did you get this gif? How do I copy it and save it?

[rogue06]

What about men born with feminine traits and features , or females born with male traits and features. Isn't there such a thing as a person having both sexes even?


Also, where did you get this gif? How do I copy it and save it?

Right click and save image

[Psychic Missile]

I am not entirely sure that physicians going along with the wishes of pubescent or prepubescent children who want to undergo hormone therapy because they consider themselves to be the wrong gender is necessarily beneficial.

The simple fact is that a trans man is not a woman. That person [at least at the present level of medical science] cannot menstruate or carry a child. I also agree that there should be some places and spaces where only those born as women should have access.

Your definition of a woman excludes those with congenital infertility or amenorrhea.

The fact is that sex is a spectrum even though most people have all or almost all binary sex traits. This is because what sex you are is determined by many different genes working together. There are all sorts of conditions where those genes don't work "correctly", like intersex individuals or those with androgen sensitivity syndrome. It's entirely conceivable that trans people are the result of different gene malfunctions, and several studies have found biological correlations between transpeople. We know that there are cut-off points where people who are truly gender dysphoric separate themselves from those without: adolescence and adulthood. The path to transitioning starts with psychological evaluation pre-adolescence, puberty blockers during adolescence (which are reversible), and hormone replacement therapy during adulthood, followed by two separate surgeries (top and bottom) at some point after. Every step of the way, transpeople are constantly monitored by a team of doctors making sure transitioning is the right course of treatment.The alternative is a very high rate of suicide, which follows historical cases where individuals born intersex had their sex surgically determined for them around the time of their birth who ended up in great anguish. Transitioning is approved by every major related medical professional organization in relevant countries, and those who have gone through the process exist as testaments to its efficacy.

The alternative is that thousands of medical professionals all over the world see transitioning hurt their patient but ignore it and all of them are wrong about their area of expertise, in spite of the absence of any number of desisting transpeople speaking out against their malpractice even though conservative organizations would be jumping at the bit to fund them. That a bunch of people who are uneducated on the subject and already predisposed to prejudice against transpeople actually know more than experts, that they have a real concern for transpeople's well-being despite never talking to one. Which is more likely?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

One of the quickest way one can get kicked off of Social Media here in the U.S. is do the sort of things those you listed have done. We haven't experienced anything like this since the age of McCarthyism

I consider the comparison with McCarthyism somewhat hyperbolic.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Your definition of a woman excludes those with congenital infertility or amenorrhea.

That, in my opinion, is a fallacious comment. Despite an individual woman's medical condition she was still born with the attendant female anatomy and organs. Whether she identifies as a woman is another matter.

The fact is that sex is a spectrum

I am not a biologist or a geneticist but from general reading the recent scientific research on DSD only applies to a fraction of society. I have several friends who are trans and have known they were not in the right body since they were children. However, trans individuals and research are not my primary concern.

What is my concern is that young people in particular are now identifying as trans and I am not entirely sure how much of that is genuine and how much is driven by social media, peer pressure, and [dare I suggest] fashion fads. I remember the early 1970s when it was suddenly “cool” to be gay [or bi] because David Bowie had come out and said he was gay despite being married. There was a flurry of interest among teenagers into historical figures who were [or were suspected of being] gay/bi.

I would also add that as an elderly feminist I also find it peculiar and somewhat disparaging that in 2015 a trans man was made Woman of the Year [Caitlyn Jenner]. The implication of making that award to Ms Jenner seemed to be suggesting that a man who identifies as a woman is, in some way, "better as a woman” than those individuals who just happen to have been born female and have always identified as such.

I also agree with Dr Todd who, last year, was “disinvited” from an event because she had previously [2017] addressed a UK group that campaigns for women to have separate spaces and services premised on our biological sex. The group [Women’s Place UK ]was subsequently labelled [by some on social media] as a “hate group” and Todd was accused of being transphobic.

It is this sort of mindset and behaviour to which I am referring. The herd mentality among some that no one must offer a contradictory opinion or viewpoint. I also find the invective and physical threats made by some within that herd towards any individual who does so, extremely worrying.

It is that sort of behaviour that I consider to be fascist.

[rogue06]

That, in my opinion, is a fallacious comment. Despite an individual woman's medical condition she was still born with the attendant female anatomy and organs. Whether she identifies as a woman is another matter.

I am not a biologist or a geneticist but from general reading the recent scientific research on DSD only applies to a fraction of society. I have several friends who are trans and have known they were not in the right body since they were children. However, trans individuals and research are not my primary concern.

What is my concern is that young people in particular are now identifying as trans and I am not entirely sure how much of that is genuine and how much is driven by social media, peer pressure, and [dare I suggest] fashion fads. I remember the early 1970s when it was suddenly “cool” to be gay [or bi] because David Bowie had come out and said he was gay despite being married. There was a flurry of interest among teenagers into historical figures who were [or were suspected of being] gay/bi.

I would also add that as an elderly feminist I also find it peculiar and somewhat disparaging that in 2015 a trans man was made Woman of the Year [Caitlyn Jenner]. The implication of making that award to Ms Jenner seemed to be suggesting that a man who identifies as a woman is, in some way, "better as a woman” than those individuals who just happen to have been born female and have always identified as such.

I also agree with Dr Todd who, last year, was “disinvited” from an event because she had previously [2017] addressed a UK group that campaigns for women to have separate spaces and services premised on our biological sex. The group [Women’s Place UK ]was subsequently labelled [by some on social media] as a “hate group” and Todd was accused of being transphobic.

It is this sort of mindset and behaviour to which I am referring. The herd mentality among some that no one must offer a contradictory opinion or viewpoint. I also find the invective and physical threats made by some within that herd towards any individual who does so, extremely worrying.

It is that sort of behaviour that I consider to be fascist.

Welcome to the woke culture that your side has unleashed upon the world. You may consider comparing it to McCarthyism as hyperbole, but I suspect that is due to only being exposed to the SJW's wrath on the periphery and from the distance. If you were its target I suspect that you might see things very differently. In the same manner that a John Bircher viewed complaints about McCarthyism as exaggerated.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Welcome to the woke culture that your side has unleashed upon the world. You may consider comparing it to McCarthyism as hyperbole, but I suspect that is due to only being exposed to the SJW's wrath on the periphery and from the distance. If you were its target I suspect that you might see things very differently. In the same manner that a John Bircher viewed complaints about McCarthyism as exaggerated.

I might as well welcome you to the QAnon conspiracies that "your side" has unleashed. It would be an equally inane comparison.

[rogue06]

I might as well welcome you to the QAnon conspiracies that "your side" has unleashed. It would be an equally inane comparison.

Both sides have their kooks, but only one is being supported by the Washington establishment, the MSM and Social Media. That makes it far more dangerous and influential.

[Psychic Missile]

That, in my opinion, is a fallacious comment. Despite an individual woman's medical condition she was still born with the attendant female anatomy and organs. Whether she identifies as a woman is another matter.

The comment was in service of the point that there is no scientifically definitive definition of "man" or "woman", only a collection of factors that are either all or mostly under the binary umbrellas.

I am not a biologist or a geneticist but from general reading the recent scientific research on DSD only applies to a fraction of society. I have several friends who are trans and have known they were not in the right body since they were children. However, trans individuals and research are not my primary concern.

What is my concern is that young people in particular are now identifying as trans and I am not entirely sure how much of that is genuine and how much is driven by social media, peer pressure, and [dare I suggest] fashion fads. I remember the early 1970s when it was suddenly “cool” to be gay [or bi] because David Bowie had come out and said he was gay despite being married. There was a flurry of interest among teenagers into historical figures who were [or were suspected of being] gay/bi.

I would also add that as an elderly feminist I also find it peculiar and somewhat disparaging that in 2015 a trans man was made Woman of the Year [Caitlyn Jenner]. The implication of making that award to Ms Jenner seemed to be suggesting that a man who identifies as a woman is, in some way, "better as a woman” than those individuals who just happen to have been born female and have always identified as such.

I also agree with Dr Todd who, last year, was “disinvited” from an event because she had previously [2017] addressed a UK group that campaigns for women to have separate spaces and services premised on our biological sex. The group [Women’s Place UK ]was subsequently labelled [by some on social media] as a “hate group” and Todd was accused of being transphobic.

It is this sort of mindset and behaviour to which I am referring. The herd mentality among some that no one must offer a contradictory opinion or viewpoint. I also find the invective and physical threats made by some within that herd towards any individual who does so, extremely worrying.

It is that sort of behaviour that I consider to be fascist.

What specific concern do you have for young people identifying as trans for non-medical reasons? In what way is it detrimental?

From what I can tell, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Jenner being named woman of the year was from Glamour magazine. Interesting enough, they also named Elizabeth Holmes entrepreneur of that year and DJ Calvin Harris as man of that year. Previous women of the year are Selena Gomez and Lady Gaga. They seem to have a very Buzzfeed-esque brand of pop-feminism, so I wouldn't recommend taking them seriously, take it from Time's 2006 person of the year.

If our scientific understanding of transpeople indicates that they are mentally their transsex, how would separate spaces and services, in a general sense, not be exclusionary of the "wrong" type of women and therefore antithetical to intersectional feminism? The fascism and intolerance you see is no different from any other moral castigation of prejudice. Is it fascism if there's a "herd mentality" that no one should say that being gay is a choice?

[seer]

The comment was in service of the point that there is no scientifically definitive definition of "man" or "woman", only a collection of factors that are either all or mostly under the binary umbrellas.

That is nonsense, the vast vast majority of humans are either biological men or women. You don't get to redefine the normal by a small percentage of the abnormal.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The comment was in service of the point that there is no scientifically definitive definition of "man" or "woman", only a collection of factors that are either all or mostly under the binary umbrellas.

Isn't the "jury still out" on all this? Has the issue been finally resolved in such a definite and "cut and dried" manner?

What specific concern do you have for young people identifying as trans for non-medical reasons? In what way is it detrimental?

The recent interest in doing so should raise questions. Why are so many young people including pubescent/prepubescent children now deciding they are trans? What are the motives/causes of that decision? How can we be entirely sure that peer pressure and social media have not played a part? How thorough is the psychological analysis prior to treatment in each case? And more importantly, what if that is analysis is mistaken?

I have the same concerns over reading reports that nine and ten year old girls want breast implants for their sixteenth birthday present. Or that more children and young people are experiencing body shame with the attendant disorders and behaviours that often accompany that condition.

From what I can tell, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Jenner being named woman of the year was from Glamour magazine. Interesting enough, they also named Elizabeth Holmes entrepreneur of that year and DJ Calvin Harris as man of that year. Previous women of the year are Selena Gomez and Lady Gaga. They seem to have a very Buzzfeed-esque brand of pop-feminism, so I wouldn't recommend taking them seriously, take it from Time's 2006 person of the year.

That she was named by such a magazine and that such magazines exist with their predilection for certain “types” of woman does [in some respects] reinforce my point about the media and its influence re "pop-feminism". How many young people are being influenced by this version of feminism, femininity, and womanhood?

I’d also point out that in most high profile cases it is male to female rather than female to male transitioning, which is a facet of all this I find very interesting.

If our scientific understanding of transpeople indicates that they are mentally their transsex, how would separate spaces and services, in a general sense, not be exclusionary of the "wrong" type of women and therefore antithetical to intersectional feminism?

I see this as a case of men [regardless of whether they identify as women] wanting to dominate feminist issues. It is men [albeit men who identify as women] demanding their concerns and rights be recognised regardless of how other women [who have always identified as women] might feel about these issues.

The fascism and intolerance you see is no different from any other moral castigation of prejudice.

Since when is having a different opinion on certain aspects of an extremely complex issue, automatically defined as "prejudice"? I am on the Left politically and have been for over fifty years, however, I do not agree with all opinions or ideologies expressed by some of those who also consider themselves part of the Left.

Am I displaying "prejudice"? Should I too experience "moral castigation" for daring to disagree?

Is it fascism if there's a "herd mentality" that no one should say that being gay is a choice?

That depends on how you define "choice". Some of us know from very early ages that we are different. Some realise that later in life. I have several friends who made a conscious decision in their twenties that they were same sex attracted. I also have friends who, in their forties or fifties, made the same decision despite, in those latter examples, having had happy marriages and children. Several maintain very good relationships with their former spouses and both share time with the grand-children.

My own view of human sexuality is that we are all probably bisexual and at some point we decide, not necessarily consciously, to which sex we are attracted.

However, in this new world of gender fluidity and trans-sexuality there appears to be no such thing as same sex preferences and so perhaps the world "gay" in its more recent meaning, should be excised from our vocabularies along with male and female pronouns.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Both sides have their kooks, but only one is being supported by the Washington establishment, the MSM and Social Media. That makes it far more dangerous and influential.

Rather as QAnon and various Alt Right paramilitary groups were given tacit support by the former administration.

[rogue06]

Rather as QAnon and various Alt Right paramilitary groups were given tacit support by the former administration.

Q-anon? Maybe. Alt Right paramilitary groups? Fantasy.

And such alleged occasional tacit support pales in the face of the direct and overt support the kooks on the left receive. Has any mayor ever helped Q-anon establish an "autonomous zone"? Was anyone arrested for trying to "dismantle" it? Have major corporations been lining up to either donate money to or outright sponsor Q-anon?

Get back to me when you can make similar comparisons.

[Psychic Missile]

That is nonsense, the vast vast majority of humans are either biological men or women. You don't get to redefine the normal by a small percentage of the abnormal.

The vast majority of pixels in this image are either green or purple, but because of the small percentage of brown pixels, it's clear this is a spectrum and not a binary. Sex is the same way. Normally, it's determined by a number of genes expressing in a certain way, but sometimes those genes express outside the binary, and you get situations like those resulting in gender dysphoria.

[seer]

The vast majority of pixels in this image are either green or purple, but because of the small percentage of brown pixels, it's clear this is a spectrum and not a binary. Sex is the same way. Normally, it's determined by a number of genes expressing in a certain way, but sometimes those genes express outside the binary, and you get situations like those resulting in gender dysphoria.

BS. The normal is not redefined by the abnormal. The normal is biological men and women - malformations or deformities do not change that.