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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Reduced to a desperate attempt to save face H_A frantically moves the goal posts clear out of the stadium
    Your original ignorance-fueled claptrap was "there is nothing in Judaism condemning abortion" and now we can see you clearly changing it to "There is nothing to be found in the Hebrew bible that specifically and categorically condemns abortion."

    Just the sort of dishonest disingenuousness we have all come to expect from you

    Moreover, Jesus never "specifically and categorically condemns" things like kidnapping or bestiality either. I guess in your warped view that indicates he was either ambivalent toward such acts if not okay with them.


    Great. Show me an "opinion" where ancient Jews thought that abortion was a swell idea.

    It just seems funny how all of the "opinions" likens it it to murder and such. I'm sure it's just a coincidence.


    Instead of trying to distract attention away from your failure wouldn't you be better served by finding an "opinion" that shows that supports your contention? You know one saying that abortion is perfectly acceptable. I wish you luck considering that this overwhelming anti-abortion sentiment of the Jews carried over into Christianity and we can see it being condemned over and over just like the Jews did.

    Just sayin.

    [/FONT]

    "The law moreover enjoins us to bring up all our offspring: and forbids women to cause abortion of what is begotten; or to destroy it afterward. And if any woman appears to have so done, she will be a murderer of her child; by destroying a living creature, and diminishing human kind."


    Please regale us with your interpretation of what Josephus wrote that shows it isn't explicitly condemning abortion.


    And the apocryphal sources serve more than adequately to illustrate how Jews felt about abortion. If it was just one source you might get away with hand waving it off as "opinion" but given it is multiple sources, apparently originating from different segments of Judaism (it is, for instance, highly unlikely that the school of thought that produced Enoch also produced the Sibylline Oracles).

    Oh, and I guess according to H_A, Hellenized Jews aren't "True Jews"™


    And this supports your belief that abortion was an accepted practice, how?

    In the section Theories of Ensoulment In Judaism from Feldman's later work

    Source: Birth Control in Jewish Law: Marital Relations, Contraception, and Abortion as Set Forth in the Classic Texts of Jewish Law


    To begin with, the moment of soul-infusion of the embryo should, it would seem, be of similar importance for the morality of abortion in Jewish law. The extent to which this is or is not so can be gauged from the following examination of the question in the rabbinic system.

    A dialogue between the Roman Emperor Antoninus and Rabbi [Judah, compiler of the Mishnah, known simply as "Rabbi"] is recorded in the Talmud:

    Antoninus said to Rabbi: "From when is the soul (n'shamah) endowed in man, from the time of conception or from the time of [the embryo's] formation?" Rabbi replied: "From the time of formation." The emperor demurred: "Can meat remain three days without salt and not putrefy? You must concede that the soul enters at conception." Rabbi [later] said, "Antoninus taught me this, and Scripture supports him, as it is said (Job 10:12): 'and Thy visitation hath preserved my spirit (ruhi).'"


    "Visitation" being identified with "ensoulment," the view of Rabbi thus teaches entry of the soul into the body at the very beginning of gestation, at the time of conception. This conclusion is affirmed in the parallel Midrashic version of the dialogue, except that here Rabbi's original view, before his concession to Antoninus, placed ensoulment even later than "formation"--at the time of birth itself:

    ". . . From when is the soul endowed in man; from the time he leaves his mother's womb or from before that time?" Rabbi replied: "From the time he leaves his mother's womb." [Antoninus demurred, etc., and Rabbi agreed: from the time of conception.]


    The bearing of these passages on the question of abortion has been debated among modern scholars. Julius Preuss declared at the beginning of this century that such theoretical musings have no relationship to the Talmud's attitude towards the juristic problem of foeticide. Prof. V. Aptowitzer disputes him; Rabbi's juristic decision that the foetus is to be regarded as "part of the mother" is, he claims, a consequences of Rabbi's (original) theological view that the soul enters at a later stage. He further argues for the greater authenticity of the Midrashic version and, accordingly, holds that Rabbi's original view, taken from the Stoics, was that the soul enters at birth. R. Immanuel Jakobovitz discounts the essential relationship, arguing correctly that there is no basis in the Talmud for a connection between views of ensoulment and the legal status of the embryo. W. Hirsch of London, in his recent volume on rabbinic concepts of the soul, rejects Aptowitzer's second point, that of the Midrashic version's relative authenticity. Rabbi, he feels, could never have believed that ensoulment takes place as late as birth. To believe so would have placed him at odds with the various Aggadic teachings about "life" in the embryo: that Jacob and Esau "struggled" with different inclinations in Rebecca's womb; that the child is instructed in Torah and adjured to be righteous before leaving his mother's womb, etc.

    © Copyright Original Source





    My God woman, can you not write a single sentence without having to put font and color codes around nearly every word? You literally ended that bit with 12 different coding instructions!

    And again, what is conspicuous by its absence is anything indicating that abortion was acceptable to the early Jews.


    Well, now there's a scholarly source. I believe at this point you'd be demanding that I show their credentials as historians if I had cited them.

    Hypocrite.


    Feldman covers Jakobvits' views and interestingly notes that he holds that "there is no basis in the Talmud for a connection between views of ensoulment and the legal status of the embryo," which kind of kicks the legs out from your attempts here.



    Okay. I gotta stop here. It's like trying to translate Sanskrit[1] what with all these superfluous code instructions every couple of words.

    Let me know when you can write like a normal person






    1. and no, I'm not saying I read Sanskrit.
    I offered a perfectly rational response. If you do not like it, there is little I can do for you. The fact remains that there is a plethora of opinion within Judaism but the Hebrew scriptures do not condemn abortion.

    However, given your previous personal comments about me and those again found here, we all know what the old saying says about people who have to resort to that line "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser".

    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Hypatia, this is what your text looks like when someone tries to respond to you:

      hypatiacode.jpg

      Please stop using Word or whatever word processor you are using. Just use something like notepad.
      Odd then that my replies look perfectly legible when I open them.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        I offered a perfectly rational response. If you do not like it, there is little I can do for you.
        What you offered was baseless speculation unsupported by evidence. You just made an assertion and then demand that it be accepted unquestioningly. When your claim was dismantled piecemeal this is your reaction.






        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Hypatia, this is what your text looks like when someone tries to respond to you:

          hypatiacode.jpg

          Please stop using Word or whatever word processor you are using. Just use something like notepad.
          As I said 12 different coding instructions just at the end of that one short paragraph


          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            What you offered was baseless speculation unsupported by evidence. You just made an assertion and then demand that it be accepted unquestioningly. When your claim was dismantled piecemeal this is your reaction.




            I cited extracts from available articles which you apparently consider to be "baseless speculation unsupported by evidence" .

            What you offer is more opinion and some baseless assertions of your own.

            What you really means is that you do not agree with me. And that is another matter entirely.

            Oh and incidentally I never mentioned Jesus and nor have I ever contended that " ancient Jews thought that abortion was a swell idea".

            Perhaps you should learn to write in a dispassionate and more rational manner.

            You display your emotions like a badge of honour.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              Odd then that my replies look perfectly legible when I open them.
              Try hitting the "quote" button and replying to one of your long formatted posts instead.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                You display your emotions like a badge of honour.
                The only emotions I display are contempt and disdain, for which you have worked studiously for.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  The only emotions I display are contempt and disdain, for which you have worked studiously for.
                  Anyone who has to resort to the language you have employed is clearly emotional and has lost the argument and therefore resorts to personal abuse.

                  As well of course, your tendency to include puerile gifs and emoticons.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • When one spews claptrap one should not get upset at those who point it out.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      When one spews claptrap one should not get upset at those who point it out.
                      Oh I leave spewing claptrap to the experts in that field.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment

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