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  • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

    Now you know how I feel about your questions to my original post.
    The point is that many doctors do perform legal abortions just as [I suspect] some doctors leave the patient [or the patient's friend/relative] free to administer the morphine pain relief without being too concerned over the quantity being delivered. Thus allowing the patient to "go gently" into death.
    Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 05-11-2021, 12:39 PM.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      The point is that many doctors do perform legal abortions just as [I suspect] some doctors leave the patient [or the patient's friend/relative] free to administer the morphine pain relief without being too stringent as to the quantity being delivered.
      Which has nothing to do with my original post, hence my most recent two.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

        Which has nothing to do with my original post, hence my most recent two.
        Pardon? Your original post [if I recall correctly] was to do with the original Hippocratic Oath which existed within societies where unwanted infants were regularly exposed.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          I just quoted Webster's that fits for a fetuses. Which I would also call it an unborn child.
          No doubt you would call a fetus an “unborn child” because it suits your agenda. Nevertheless, common usage generally refers to “offspring” as a person's child or children – NOT an insensate fetus.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Of course half way through that first trimester the baby has it's own heartbeat and brain waves. It is deliberately manipulative language on your part as you hide behind the excuse that most abortions take place during the first trimester
            But during the first trimester a fetus is still not a viable entity outside the womb. This is why Roe v Wade issued the guidelines it did, reinforced later by the SCOTUS, and why over 90% of abortions are performed during the first trimester. Roe v Wade is supported by over two thirds of US adults.

            And again as we have seen, the left is not at all satisfied with that. They want every state doing like New York and legalizing abortion right up to the moment of birth. And you have the governor of Virginia talking about allowing "after-birth abortion" as well (straight up infanticide). In fact, Obama supported that position.
            This is just the Slippery-Slope Fallacy, whereby one event leads to another event and so on until we come to some awful conclusion such as (in this instance) slaughtering fetuses as they emerge from the womb. Of course, this is the end game for the “evil leftists” - everyone knows that.

            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              No doubt you would call a fetus an “unborn child” because it suits your agenda.
              Sort of ironic considering that quote from you in my signature block

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                But during the first trimester a fetus is still not a viable entity outside the womb.
                When a person is in a coma they are not "viable outside the womb" without being hooked up to numerous machines and devices. And those brainwaves that appear in the first trimester are more active than many of those in deep comas.

                I guess, according to you and your ilk that makes people in comas less than fully human and we can simply dispose of them at our leisure.


                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                This is why Roe v Wade issued the guidelines it did, reinforced later by the SCOTUS, and why over 90% of abortions are performed during the first trimester. Roe v Wade is supported by over two thirds of US adults.
                Aside from the fact that science has advanced quite a bit since 1973, including in the field of embryology, depending on the year abortions during the first trimester are in the upper 80s (the last one I have figures for is 88%). But sticking at 90% for the sake of argument, that would mean 61,959 unborn babies were killed after the first trimester in 2018. 61,959. That's more than four times the number killed as a result of gun violence (and in the case of gun violence much if not most is bad guys shooting bad guys whereas tan unborn baby is the definition of innocence).

                And if Roe is supported by two-thirds of the American public then why do polls find that so many Americans want to see increased restrictions -- including a full third of those that say they support Roe v Wade (according to 2019 NPR/PBS/Marist poll). Moreover, the same year, Gallup found that support for Roe is in the low 50s not two-thirds. In fact of the 53% that say they supported Roe, only 13% favored abortion being "legal under most circumstances" (i.e., Roe v. Wade etc.) and 39% of them want it "legal in only a few circumstances" (1% were "unspecified").

                So it looks like that there are a lot of folks who proclaim support for Roe who really aren't supporting it all that much.


                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                This is just the Slippery-Slope Fallacy, whereby one event leads to another event and so on until we come to some awful conclusion such as (in this instance) slaughtering fetuses as they emerge from the womb. Of course, this is the end game for the “evil leftists” - everyone knows that.
                Really? Then why are we witnessing with our own eyes what you so desperately want to sweep under the rug? New York was, IIRC, the first state that legalized aborting a baby right up to the moment of birth. Gov. Andrew pack-the-nursing-homes-with Covid-patients Cuomo even ordering the bridges and buildings be decorated with pink lights to celebrate this ghoulish accomplishment of allowing unborn babies to be killed for any reason whatsoever right up to the moment of birth.
                00000000000000000R2.jpg
                Please note how Cuomo himself characterizes it




                This is indisputable fact no matter how much you want to pretend otherwise and hence... Strike one.

                Shortly afterwards, as Virginia considered a similar law, Gov. Ralph Northam described a scenario where an infant would be born alive, but then not resuscitated if the child was not wanted:

                "If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother."


                After-birth abortion being advocated by Virginia's governor. Strike two.

                And keep in mind that, while still a senator in the Illinois legislature, Barack Obama opposed efforts to protect babies who had survived abortion attempts voting against Born Alive acts in Illinois as well as opposing legislation that would define those babies as persons. During debate over one of the Born Alive bills Obama made it clear that he was far more concerned with things like protecting abortion itself and with protecting doctors who just shouldn't be required to preserve the lives of babies who stubbornly refused to die and were born alive as can be seen from his remarks:

                As I understand it, this puts the burden on the attending physician who has determined, since they were performing this procedure, that, in fact, this is a nonviable fetus; that if that fetus, or child ... however way you want to describe it ... is now outside the mother's womb and the doctor continues to think that it's nonviable but there's, let's say, movement or some indication that, in fact, they're not just coming out limp and dead.


                So if the doctor was wrong and the baby certainly was viable in that it actually survived an attempt to kill it, then the doctor shouldn't be "burden[ed]" with trying to keep the baby alive since it had the gall to "not just coming out limp and dead."

                I guess this means that if someone is sick or injured and a doctor assumes that they won't survive but in fact does then that doctor shouldn't be burdened with helping to keep them alive but should be free to refuse all treatment and even food and water so that they will finally die.

                In any case, strike three. You're outta there!

                Try failing better in the future.
                Last edited by rogue06; 05-12-2021, 06:43 AM.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  After-birth abortion being advocated by Virginia's governor. Strike two.

                  .

                  Academics are already suggesting after birth abortion for any reason at all.

                  From the leading journal of medical ethics...

                  After-birth abortion: why should the baby live?

                  https://jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/261
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • The "that's a slippery slope argument" excuse is the left's first line of defense of atrocities. "You guys always imagine the worst. We are not going to legalize gay marriage/take your guns/kill your infants. Pish and Posh! That's a slippery slope argument!"

                    And then slowly but surely the slippery slope becomes a full blown slip-n-slide avalanche.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Academics are already suggesting after birth abortion for any reason at all.

                      From the leading journal of medical ethics...

                      After-birth abortion: why should the baby live?

                      https://jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/261
                      I recently posted something for H_A about the growing support for "after-birth abortions" (i.e., old-fashioned infanticide) among pro-abortion advocates, which includes mention of Northam and Obama's support: https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...60#post1208860

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        Pardon? Your original post [if I recall correctly] was to do with the original Hippocratic Oath which existed within societies where unwanted infants were regularly exposed.
                        Which again has nothing to do with my main point. You've mastered the non sequitur haven't you? My main point was about the philosophical arguments and beliefs for those who are against abortion existing long before ultrasounds.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                          Which again has nothing to do with my main point. You've mastered the non sequitur haven't you? My main point was about the philosophical arguments and beliefs for those who are against abortion existing long before ultrasounds.
                          There appear to have been some who expressed concerns. .

                          The Jews were admired [sometimes grudgingly] because they did not expose unwanted infants. Some in the Graeco-Roman world also expressed their concerns over the practise. However, there is nothing in Judaism condemning abortion and certainly abortion was practised in the Graeco-Roman world,


                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            There appear to have been some who expressed concerns. .

                            The Jews were admired [sometimes grudgingly] because they did not expose unwanted infants. Some in the Graeco-Roman world also expressed their concerns over the practise. However, there is nothing in Judaism condemning abortion and certainly abortion was practised in the Graeco-Roman world,
                            Meanwhile the book of Enoch describes "the smiting of the embryo in the womb that it may pass away," as being literally demonically inspired (1 Enoch 69:12) declaring that an evil angel taught humans how to "smash the embryo in the womb"

                            Josephus declared in his Against Apion” Book II:

                            The law moreover enjoins us to bring up all our offspring: and forbids women to cause abortion of what is begotten; or to destroy it afterward. And if any woman appears to have so done, she will be a murderer of her child; by destroying a living creature, and diminishing human kind. If any one therefore proceeds to such fornication, or murder, he cannot be clean.


                            A little later we have the Judeo-Christian Sibylline Oracles (not to be confused with the Roman Sibylline Books), which contains a wealth of information regarding both Jewish and early Christian beliefs, in which we can read the following:

                            The godless furthermore shall to all ages perish, all who did evils aforetime, and committed murders, And all who are accomplices therein,...All who caused abortions, and all who their offspring cast unlawfully away.


                            Next we have the Jewish work Sentences of Pseudo-Phocylides, dating somewhere from between 100B.C. and 100A.D.:

                            Do not let a woman destroy the unborn babe in her belly, nor after its birth throw it before the dogs and the vultures as a prey.


                            You may also want to take a look at Birth Control in Jewish Law: Marital Relations, Contraception, and Abortion as Set Forth in the Classic Texts of Jewish Law by David Michael Feldman and Abortion and the Early Church: Christian, Jewish and Pagan Attitudes in the Greco-Roman World by Michael Gorman[1] but be prepared to have your narrative dismantled.

                            Care to try again?



                            1. Another one of use is Is God a Moral Monster by Paul Copan

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Meanwhile the book of Enoch describes "the smiting of the embryo in the womb that it may pass away," as being literally demonically inspired (1 Enoch 69:12) declaring that an evil angel taught humans how to "smash the embryo in the womb"

                              Josephus declared in his Against Apion” Book II:

                              The law moreover enjoins us to bring up all our offspring: and forbids women to cause abortion of what is begotten; or to destroy it afterward. And if any woman appears to have so done, she will be a murderer of her child; by destroying a living creature, and diminishing human kind. If any one therefore proceeds to such fornication, or murder, he cannot be clean.


                              A little later we have the Judeo-Christian Sibylline Oracles (not to be confused with the Roman Sibylline Books), which contains a wealth of information regarding both Jewish and early Christian beliefs, in which we can read the following:

                              The godless furthermore shall to all ages perish, all who did evils aforetime, and committed murders, And all who are accomplices therein,...All who caused abortions, and all who their offspring cast unlawfully away.


                              Next we have the Jewish work Sentences of Pseudo-Phocylides, dating somewhere from between 100B.C. and 100A.D.:

                              Do not let a woman destroy the unborn babe in her belly, nor after its birth throw it before the dogs and the vultures as a prey.


                              You may also want to take a look at Birth Control in Jewish Law: Marital Relations, Contraception, and Abortion as Set Forth in the Classic Texts of Jewish Law by David Michael Feldman and Abortion and the Early Church: Christian, Jewish and Pagan Attitudes in the Greco-Roman World by Michael Gorman[1] but be prepared to have your narrative dismantled.

                              Care to try again?



                              1. Another one of use is Is God a Moral Monster by Paul Copan
                              At this point I'm ignoring her posts that don't actually impact the main point I'm making. Looking back that has been all of them.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                                At this point I'm ignoring her posts that don't actually impact the main point I'm making. Looking back that has been all of them.
                                She's as tenacious as any terrier when it comes to going down rabbit holes.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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