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  • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

    Given the original Hippocratic Oath contained a part about not doing abortions I highly doubt not having access to sonograms and the like would have been a hindrance to being anti-abortion.
    The advent of the sonogram or ultrasound was merely useful in exposing the lie that the unborn baby was nothing but a clump of cells.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

      Given the original Hippocratic Oath contained a part about not doing abortions I highly doubt not having access to sonograms and the like would have been a hindrance to being anti-abortion.
      It just seems that the body parts, that actually physically look like body parts are the driving force, not the abstract idea of life. That's just based on what i've seen of of protests where photos of dismembered parts are displayed either in photo form or actual.

      If it was all limited to several days after the egg was fertilized, the shock and awe element would be absent. It doesn't seem that a protest could be sustained by intellectual arguments alone.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

        It just seems that the body parts, that actually physically look like body parts are the driving force, not the abstract idea of life. That's just based on what i've seen of of protests where photos of dismembered parts are displayed either in photo form or actual.
        Heartbeats and brain waves aren't body parts. But yes, graphic images will always have an impact. Without them reports at what happened at places like Auschwitz could blur into nothing but statistics.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

          It just seems that the body parts, that actually physically look like body parts are the driving force, not the abstract idea of life. That's just based on what i've seen of of protests where photos of dismembered parts are displayed either in photo form or actual.

          If it was all limited to several days after the egg was fertilized, the shock and awe element would be absent. It doesn't seem that a protest could be sustained by intellectual arguments alone.
          If that were true then the philosophical arguments against abortion wouldn't have existed before sonograms, but they did.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Some even experimented on living patients. That hardly makes doing so right.
            Abortions?
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              Abortions?
              I'm referring to those like Mengele and those associated with Japan's Unit 731.

              Just because you can find some doctors doing something does not make it right.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                All that shows is that many doctors broke the Hippocratic Oath.
                Hmmm...

                https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...h-201511258447


                The myth of the Hippocratic Oath

                POSTED NOVEMBER 25, 2015, 9:00 AM , UPDATED NOVEMBER 28, 2015, 10:41 AM

                Robert H. Shmerling, MD

                Senior Faculty Editor, Harvard Health Publishing
                Soon after his shootout with police in 2013, one of the suspected Boston Marathon bombers was taken to an area hospital with serious injuries. A reporter covering the story described how, despite the heinous crimes of which he’d been accused, doctors would work hard to save his life because they’d taken an oath to do so. I knew she was referring to the Hippocratic Oath. But I also knew she was wrong.


                There was a good chance that these doctors had never taken the Hippocratic Oath, but even if they had, there’s nothing in the oath that specifically obligates them to provide care for suspected criminals.

                Perhaps it should, but it doesn’t.

                In fact, the modern-day Hippocratic Oath covers only a few issues relevant to the ethical practice of medicine. It does cover some important stuff. Some of that stuff is controversial, and has been liberally revised. But plenty is simply left out from the original.
                What is the Hippocratic Oath?


                The Hippocratic Oath is named after the ancient Greek physician Hippocrates. He is widely considered to be its author, although its true origins are uncertain; it may have been written by one of his students or by more than one person. It represents a time-honored guideline for physicians and other healthcare professionals as they begin or end their training. By swearing to follow the principles spelled out in the oath, healthcare professionals promise to behave honestly and ethically.

                Those taking the “original” Hippocratic Oath promise to:
                • respect and support their teachers
                • share medical knowledge with others who are interested
                • use their knowledge of medicine and diet to help patients
                • avoid harming patients, including providing no “deadly medicine” even if requested to do so
                • not provide a “remedy” that causes an abortion
                • seek help from other physicians (such as a surgeon) when necessary
                • avoid “mischief,” “injustice,” and “sexual relations” during visits to patients’ homes
                • keep patient information confidential.

                More modern revisions have avoided any mention of abortion and, as in a popular 1964 revision (by Dr. Louis Lasagna, a physician at Johns Hopkins University), treated euthanasia with more nuance:

                “…it may…be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.”

                In addition, Dr. Lasagna encouraged a holistic and preventive approach to care:

                “I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person’s family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick. I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.”
                What’s missing?


                Today’s doctors face a number of important ethical issues that are not included in the Hippocratic Oath. For example, it makes no mention of:
                • honoring patients’ preferences
                • sharing medical information with patients
                • avoiding conflicts of interest, such as profiting by ordering unnecessary tests or treatments
                • protecting patients who enroll in research studies
                • treating all patients equally, regardless of ability to pay, social class, education, race, or suspicion of criminality
                • avoiding the practice of medicine while impaired (due to physical or psychological disease).
                Who takes the oath?


                According to a 1989 survey, barely half of U.S. medical schools used any form of the Hippocratic Oath and only 2% used the original. In a 2011 study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, about 80% of practicing physicians reported participating in an oath ceremony, but only a quarter felt that the oath significantly affected how they practiced.
                Beyond the Hippocratic Oath


                In the United States, when newly matriculating medical students are draped in their freshly starched white coats, an oath of some kind is often read as part of the ceremony. But there is far more for these new trainees to learn and understand than a passage as brief or as ancient as the Hippocratic Oath could capture. Today, health professionals routinely encounter ethical challenges in modern clinical practice. Rather than rely on well-intentioned but outdated principles, they must call upon their experience and training, widely-accepted modern guidelines, the advice of mentors, and their personal sense of right and wrong to figure out what to do. Fortunately, there are many useful resources beyond the Hippocratic Oath to help guide them in the right direction.

                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  I'm referring to those like Mengele and those associated with Japan's Unit 731.

                  Just because you can find some doctors doing something does not make it right.
                  Well the exchange was concerning abortion. I can't follow your mental leaps and non sequiturs.

                  I hardly think a modern abortion can be likened to the horrors of Mengele or the Japanese. I think the tendency among so many pro-birthers is to think of abortion as something done in the third trimester. Most abortions take place earlier than 15 weeks, some much earlier, often within 72 hours of having sex by using with over the counter abortifacients aka Morning After Pill. In such cases the woman may not even be pregnant she is taking the medication merely as a precaution.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    Well the exchange was concerning abortion. I can't follow your mental leaps and non sequiturs.

                    I hardly think a modern abortion can be likened to the horrors of Mengele or the Japanese. I think the tendency among so many pro-birthers is to think of abortion as something done in the third trimester. Most abortions take place earlier than 15 weeks, some much earlier, often within 72 hours of having sex by using with over the counter abortifacients aka Morning After Pill. In such cases the woman may not even be pregnant she is taking the medication merely as a precaution.
                    I made it clear that I was talking about following doctors in general. Don't blame me for your lack of comprehension. Just because you can find doctors doing it does not make it right, ethical or legal.

                    Modern abortionists have killed by many orders of magnitude far more than those Mengele et. al. ever dreamed of.

                    And at 5 to 6 weeks that baby has its own heartbeat and brainwaves so it is darn hard to argue that any killed after that point isn't the murder of a human being.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      Hmmm...

                      https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...h-201511258447


                      The myth of the Hippocratic Oath

                      POSTED NOVEMBER 25, 2015, 9:00 AM , UPDATED NOVEMBER 28, 2015, 10:41 AM

                      Robert H. Shmerling, MD

                      Senior Faculty Editor, Harvard Health Publishing
                      Soon after his shootout with police in 2013, one of the suspected Boston Marathon bombers was taken to an area hospital with serious injuries. A reporter covering the story described how, despite the heinous crimes of which he’d been accused, doctors would work hard to save his life because they’d taken an oath to do so. I knew she was referring to the Hippocratic Oath. But I also knew she was wrong.


                      There was a good chance that these doctors had never taken the Hippocratic Oath, but even if they had, there’s nothing in the oath that specifically obligates them to provide care for suspected criminals.

                      Perhaps it should, but it doesn’t.

                      In fact, the modern-day Hippocratic Oath covers only a few issues relevant to the ethical practice of medicine. It does cover some important stuff. Some of that stuff is controversial, and has been liberally revised. But plenty is simply left out from the original.
                      What is the Hippocratic Oath?


                      The Hippocratic Oath is named after the ancient Greek physician Hippocrates. He is widely considered to be its author, although its true origins are uncertain; it may have been written by one of his students or by more than one person. It represents a time-honored guideline for physicians and other healthcare professionals as they begin or end their training. By swearing to follow the principles spelled out in the oath, healthcare professionals promise to behave honestly and ethically.

                      Those taking the “original” Hippocratic Oath promise to:
                      • respect and support their teachers
                      • share medical knowledge with others who are interested
                      • use their knowledge of medicine and diet to help patients
                      • avoid harming patients, including providing no “deadly medicine” even if requested to do so
                      • not provide a “remedy” that causes an abortion
                      • seek help from other physicians (such as a surgeon) when necessary
                      • avoid “mischief,” “injustice,” and “sexual relations” during visits to patients’ homes
                      • keep patient information confidential.

                      More modern revisions have avoided any mention of abortion and, as in a popular 1964 revision (by Dr. Louis Lasagna, a physician at Johns Hopkins University), treated euthanasia with more nuance:

                      “…it may…be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.”

                      In addition, Dr. Lasagna encouraged a holistic and preventive approach to care:

                      “I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person’s family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick. I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.”
                      What’s missing?


                      Today’s doctors face a number of important ethical issues that are not included in the Hippocratic Oath. For example, it makes no mention of:
                      • honoring patients’ preferences
                      • sharing medical information with patients
                      • avoiding conflicts of interest, such as profiting by ordering unnecessary tests or treatments
                      • protecting patients who enroll in research studies
                      • treating all patients equally, regardless of ability to pay, social class, education, race, or suspicion of criminality
                      • avoiding the practice of medicine while impaired (due to physical or psychological disease).
                      Who takes the oath?


                      According to a 1989 survey, barely half of U.S. medical schools used any form of the Hippocratic Oath and only 2% used the original. In a 2011 study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, about 80% of practicing physicians reported participating in an oath ceremony, but only a quarter felt that the oath significantly affected how they practiced.
                      Beyond the Hippocratic Oath


                      In the United States, when newly matriculating medical students are draped in their freshly starched white coats, an oath of some kind is often read as part of the ceremony. But there is far more for these new trainees to learn and understand than a passage as brief or as ancient as the Hippocratic Oath could capture. Today, health professionals routinely encounter ethical challenges in modern clinical practice. Rather than rely on well-intentioned but outdated principles, they must call upon their experience and training, widely-accepted modern guidelines, the advice of mentors, and their personal sense of right and wrong to figure out what to do. Fortunately, there are many useful resources beyond the Hippocratic Oath to help guide them in the right direction.
                      In your attempt to nitpick you prove my original point. I have the proof underlined.

                      I never claimed all doctors took the Hippocratic Oath, despite you trying to foist said claim upon me.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                        In your attempt to nitpick you prove my original point. I have the proof underlined.

                        I never claimed all doctors took the Hippocratic Oath, despite you trying to foist said claim upon me.
                        Yes but did you note these sections?

                        Today’s doctors face a number of important ethical issues that are not included in the Hippocratic Oath. For example, it makes no mention of:
                        • honoring patients’ preferences
                        • sharing medical information with patients
                        • avoiding conflicts of interest, such as profiting by ordering unnecessary tests or treatments
                        • protecting patients who enroll in research studies
                        • treating all patients equally, regardless of ability to pay, social class, education, race, or suspicion of criminality
                        • avoiding the practice of medicine while impaired (due to physical or psychological disease).
                        And:

                        "According to a 1989 survey, barely half of U.S. medical schools used any form of the Hippocratic Oath and only 2% used the original. In a 2011 study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, about 80% of practicing physicians reported participating in an oath ceremony, but only a quarter felt that the oath significantly affected how they practiced."
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          I made it clear that I was talking about following doctors in general. Don't blame me for your lack of comprehension. Just because you can find doctors doing it does not make it right, ethical or legal.

                          Modern abortionists have killed by many orders of magnitude far more than those Mengele et. al. ever dreamed of.

                          And at 5 to 6 weeks that baby has its own heartbeat and brainwaves so it is darn hard to argue that any killed after that point isn't the murder of a human being.
                          Your comment was in response to my specific comment on abortion:

                          I wrote "Yet many doctors have performed abortions [often illegally]"

                          And you replied "Some even experimented on living patients. That hardly makes doing so right."

                          The logical inference from that is that you were referring to abortions.




                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                            Yes but did you note these sections?

                            Today’s doctors face a number of important ethical issues that are not included in the Hippocratic Oath. For example, it makes no mention of:
                            • honoring patients’ preferences
                            • sharing medical information with patients
                            • avoiding conflicts of interest, such as profiting by ordering unnecessary tests or treatments
                            • protecting patients who enroll in research studies
                            • treating all patients equally, regardless of ability to pay, social class, education, race, or suspicion of criminality
                            • avoiding the practice of medicine while impaired (due to physical or psychological disease).
                            And:

                            "According to a 1989 survey, barely half of U.S. medical schools used any form of the Hippocratic Oath and only 2% used the original. In a 2011 study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, about 80% of practicing physicians reported participating in an oath ceremony, but only a quarter felt that the oath significantly affected how they practiced."
                            Yes, I did. Do you know how many doctors there are, and how much 2% of them would amount to?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                              Yes, I did. Do you know how many doctors there are, and how much 2% of them would amount to?
                              That isn't the point.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                That isn't the point.
                                Now you know how I feel about your questions to my original post.

                                Comment

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