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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    That is not what I asked: In Paul's mind is the sin of having sex with a prostitute is identical to sex within in the confines of Holy Matrimony? Yes or no?
    He compares the two.


    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Good grief woman, it is on you to prove YOUR claim, that Paul believed passion was unseemly in the confines of Marriage.
    And I've given you the Greek text,

    Now you show me where Paul endorses or encourages passion - anywhere.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
      He compares the two.
      You said identical - are you backtracking now?

      And I've given you the Greek text,

      Now you show me where Paul endorses or encourages passion - anywhere.
      You gave me texts where Paul condemns passion or desire leading to sexual immorality. Nothing about in the context of marriage. And your feeble attempt to turn the question around is simply dishonest on your part - sadly something I have come to expect from you...
      Last edited by seer; 05-09-2021, 12:21 PM.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        You said identical - are you backtracking now?
        Paul appears to make a direct comparison between with sex in marriage and sex with a prostitute. What Paul intended by that has been the subject of much scholarly debate.


        Originally posted by seer View Post
        You gave me texts where Paul condemns passion or desire leading to sexual immorality. Nothing about in the context of marriage. ...
        As noted from I Corinthians 7 Paul sees marriage as a weakness. Celibate virginity is the ideal as later texts and some ECFs would go on to argue.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          Paul appears to make a direct comparison between with sex in marriage and sex with a prostitute. What Paul intended by that has been the subject of much scholarly debate.
          Who else says that marriage is identical to sex with a prostitute? Which scholars? Stop being dishonest.


          As noted from I Corinthians 7 Paul sees marriage as a weakness. Celibate virginity is the ideal as later texts and some ECFs would go on to argue.
          And what does that have to do with whether sexual desire between a man and a wife is acceptable or not?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • I find this argument very confusing.
            Last edited by Machinist; 05-09-2021, 01:08 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post

              Who else says that marriage is identical to sex with a prostitute? Which scholars? Stop being dishonest.
              You could start here: Brian S Rosner, "Temple Prostitution in 1 Corinthians 6:12-20", in Novum Testamentum , [Brill, Oct., 1998, Vol. 40, pp. 336-351]


              Originally posted by seer View Post
              And what does that have to do with whether sexual desire between a man and a wife is acceptable or not?
              Read my earlier replies.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                You could start here: Brian S Rosner, "Temple Prostitution in 1 Corinthians 6:12-20", in Novum Testamentum , [Brill, Oct., 1998, Vol. 40, pp. 336-351]
                Bull crap! Quote where Rosner says that marriage is identical to sex with a prostitute. Stop being dishonest.


                Read my earlier replies.
                None of your references tell us what Paul thought of desire between a man and a wife.


                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Or in other words, I find it very confusing as to what exactly is being argued.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                    Or in other words, I find it very confusing as to what exactly is being argued.
                    Hypatia is suggesting that because Paul condemns passion or sexual desires that leads to sexual immorality that therefore passion or desire within a marriage is also unacceptable.

                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      He compares the two.
                      Does he compare or does he contrast?

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Can there be sexual immorality within marriage?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                          Can there be sexual immorality within marriage?
                          What would you call a couple sleeping with their child?
                          Last edited by rogue06; 05-09-2021, 03:58 PM.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            What would you call a couple sleeping with their child?
                            As in a threesome? I would call that immoral.

                            I was talking about just within the context of marriage?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post

                              Hypatia is suggesting that because Paul condemns passion or sexual desires that leads to sexual immorality that therefore passion or desire within a marriage is also unacceptable.
                              Despite the conclusion reached by many that Paul must have had a ‘healthy’ view of heterosexual sex and sexuality, the notion that Paul was opposed to passionate sex in marriage comes as something of a surprise for most modern and Protestant interpreters.

                              However, it has been suggested by some scholars that rather than examining Paul’s writing through the lens of modern sexual attitudes and common sense we might do better to look structures and ideas within the ancient world in which the absence of sex and sexuality was not only possible but preferable. Those ideas and structures were to be found in the among some ancient medical writers as well as the philosophical ideas of the Stoics. Ancient medical writers saw the dangers of sexual desire but advocated control not elimination. The Stoic philosophers on the other hand viewed sexual desire as irrational and unnatural and held the view that a strong minded person could, and should, eliminate this desire along with all the other passions. This did not mean an end to sex and marriage, more importantly it was sex without desire. The person for whom the elimination of all desires and for whom happiness was not dependent upon those things that others wished for, would find complete freedom.

                              Paul seems to have fallen between these two "stools" of thought regarding passion and sex. He clearly felt that, like the Stoics, a person should eliminate all desire even within marriage but he also leaned towards the ideas held by the ancient medical writers that for most people self sufficiency was unattainable, and therefore marriage was a means of guarding against those desires. In this he echoes the voices of numerous ancient moralists who advocated sex without passion as an ideal in marriage. An aphorism of Ps.-Phocylides sheds light on the influence of this anti-erotic tradition on Paul: “Do not deliver yourself wholly unto unbridled sensuality towards your wife, for ‘eros’ is not a god, but a passion destructive of all.” Paul expressed the unbridled character of love and the dishonorable loss of self-control that invariably followed with the key philosophical term: passion (πάθος]

                              [see Frederickson D,Passionless Sex in I Thessalonians 4:4-5; Martin D, Sex and the Single Saviour: Gender and Sexuality in Biblical Interpretation]


                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                                Or in other words, I find it very confusing as to what exactly is being argued.
                                My reply at post #209 might help.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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