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  • The two become one flesh thing...what does that mean exactly, and is that a Timeless Universal Truth? If it is, then did the Patriarchs of the Old Testament and their wives all become one flesh, or is this a function that is limited to 2? Sort of like an eternal absolute characteristic of God's immutable nature?

    It would seem that having 2 wives would be consistent with Trinitarian Doctrine.

    Also, why do Paul's words take precedence over Jesus'? It seems that if sex outside of marriage is such a damnable abomination, Jesus would have at the very least mentioned it.

    I understand though the emotional and fleshly commitments and attachments that happen during sex, and with the wrong person, it can wreck your inner peace.

    Comment


    • Just going out on a theological limb here, but perhaps the two become one through the function of Hypostasis? Metaphysically that is? As in the that is exactly how they appear in the Eyes of God?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        Again, that is a no...
        I would suggest that you do because murder has a specific legal meaning.

        Originally posted by seer View Post

        I just did. When a man has sex with a woman, whether a wife or a harlot or a girlfriend they become one flesh.
        Hence the apparent comparison between sex with one’s wife or a prostitute being, for Paul, identical.


        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Again you are not telling the truth. Paul never says that sexual desire or passion for one's spouse is a moral wrong.
        Paul regards all passion with opprobrium and considers marriage [and the sex that accompanies it] to be a weakness . Consider his choice of language in I Corinthians 7.6. "Now this I say by permission [συγγνώμην] not by command".
        That word permission/concession also has connotations of pardoning or excusing.

        Paul appears to be telling his married congregation that he permits their actions. He is not telling them they should get married. He is conceding to, and pardoning them for, what he sees as a weakness. This is illustrated by his comments directly afterwards at verse 7.I wish that all were as I myself am.” He clearly wishes everyone could be a celibate like himself but then acknowledges that different people have different gifts given to them by god.

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Again you are not telling the truth. Paul never says that sexual desire or passion for one's spouse is a moral wrong. Only with illegitimate sexual acts. You made that up. If not list the text.

        Paul never uses the word passion in any positive way. It is always something to be condemned and controlled. He demonstrates this concern with control in his later enigmatic statement at verse 9 “For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion. In that verse it is clear that Paul has no concept of good sexual desire and certainly no positive view of passion.

        This same attitude towards sexual desire can be found in I Thessalonians 4, I Corinthians 10, and Romans 1. Passion is part of the polluting and defiled cosmos that is acting in opposition to God.

        Paul wants the men of his congregation to avoid the dangers of prostitutes and fornication [πορνεία] and passion [πάθει] and use their wives as a safe receptacle for their sexual overflow. For Paul the very root of sin is desire and lust [‘επιθυμία]; and although he does use the word ‘επιθυμία [desire] in a morally neutral sense as when he “desires” to see someone or do something [e.g. Phil 1.23 and I Thes 2.17] when he writes on the topic of sex and sexual desire he has nothing good to say about it.

        Hence his comments on sex in marriage in I Corinthians 7.3 are about a husband and wife giving each other their debt/and doing their duty. not about delighting in the sexual desire and sexual passion they feel for one another’s bodies.



        "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

        Comment


        • Being aflame with physical passion can definitely put a damper on the Spirit and the Passions necessary for Evangelism.

          I think I understand why it wasn't necessary for Jesus to mention it. It is very obvious that sex alters the mind and sends your senses in an entirely different direction than God's Presence. Even after the act, it can dominate the mind and leave you wanting for another shot of oxytocin. It is a drug and it is highly addictive.
          Last edited by Machinist; 05-07-2021, 09:36 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
            Also, why do Paul's words take precedence over Jesus'?
            What a very good question!

            Originally posted by Machinist View Post
            It seems that if sex outside of marriage is such a damnable abomination, Jesus would have at the very least mentioned it.
            We have the pericope in John's gospel.

            Originally posted by Machinist View Post
            I understand though the emotional and fleshly commitments and attachments that happen during sex, and with the wrong person, it can wreck your inner peace.
            Judaism generally has a a very positive attitude towards sex. After all God made everything and "saw that it was good". Sex is for procreation and pleasure and the Talmud even has injunctions towards husbands that they must sexually satisfy their wives.
            "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

              Also, why do Paul's words take precedence over Jesus'? It seems that if sex outside of marriage is such a damnable abomination, Jesus would have at the very least mentioned it.
              An argument from silence if there ever was one, although the adultery story might be considered mentioning it.

              And before jumping to any conclusions keep John 21:25 in mind along with the fact that Jesus never spoke about (as far as what is available to us) about things like kidnapping. Does that therefore indicate that he was pro-kidnapping or at the least neutral concerning it? And just because Jesus does not mention something that Paul does cover does not in some mystical manner mean that Paul is suddenly taking precedence over Jesus. Frankly, that just seems to be a strange conclusion to leap to.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                Judaism generally has a a very positive attitude towards sex within the confines of marriage. After all God made everything and "saw that it was good". Sex is for procreation and pleasure and the Talmud even has injunctions towards husbands that they must sexually satisfy their wives.
                Agreed but with the addition I provided

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Looks like I need to get married.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                    Looks like I need to get married.
                    I'll confess, in spite of what I wrote this area is one of my more prominent failings.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Agreed but with the addition I provided
                      Point taken. Although some branches of present day Judaism are more receptive to non married sex [i.e. long term relationships] providing that those relationships are monogamous, both partners respect one another, and the relationship holds to Jewish sexual ethics. That view encompasses both heterosexual and homosexual relationships
                      "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                        Point taken. Although some branches of present day Judaism are more receptive to non married sex [i.e. long term relationships] providing that those relationships are monogamous, both partners respect one another, and the relationship holds to Jewish sexual ethics. That view encompasses both heterosexual and homosexual relationships
                        Interesting that the more secular they are the more they are also willing to embrace unscriptural points-of-view. Funny how that works.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                          Also, why do Paul's words take precedence over Jesus'? It seems that if sex outside of marriage is such a damnable abomination, Jesus would have at the very least mentioned it.
                          Did he mention rape or incest?

                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                            Looks like I need to get married.
                            We date for one reason, to find a suitable marriage partner.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              Hence the apparent comparison between sex with one’s wife or a prostitute being, for Paul, identical.
                              So in Paul's mind the sin of having sex with a prostitute is identical to sex within in the confines of Holy Matrimony? Do you seriously believe that?

                              Paul regards all passion with opprobrium and considers marriage [and the sex that accompanies it] to be a weakness . Consider his choice of language in I Corinthians 7.6. "Now this I say by permission [συγγνώμην] not by command". That word permission/concession also has connotations of pardoning or excusing.
                              So he is saying to direct your passion to the marriage bed. Good.

                              Paul appears to be telling his married congregation that he permits their actions. He is not telling them they should get married. He is conceding to, and pardoning them for, what he sees as a weakness. This is illustrated by his comments directly afterwards at verse 7.I wish that all were as I myself am.” He clearly wishes everyone could be a celibate like himself but then acknowledges that different people have different gifts given to them by god.
                              And what does that have to do with passion in the marriage bed?


                              Paul never uses the word passion in any positive way. It is always something to be condemned and controlled. He demonstrates this concern with control in his later enigmatic statement at verse 9 “For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion. In that verse it is clear that Paul has no concept of good sexual desire and certainly no positive view of passion.

                              This same attitude towards sexual desire can be found in I Thessalonians 4, I Corinthians 10, and Romans 1. Passion is part of the polluting and defiled cosmos that is acting in opposition to God.
                              All of these are in context of sexual immorality. Try to fail harder.


                              Paul wants the men of his congregation to avoid the dangers of prostitutes and fornication [πορνεία] and passion [πάθει] and use their wives as a safe receptacle for their sexual overflow. For Paul the very root of sin is desire and lust [‘επιθυμία]; and although he does use the word ‘επιθυμία [desire] in a morally neutral sense as when he “desires” to see someone or do something [e.g. Phil 1.23 and I Thes 2.17] when he writes on the topic of sex and sexual desire he has nothing good to say about it.

                              Again, the only sin he is speaking of is sexuality immorality. The desire to sin in a sexual manner - NOTHING else.
                              Hence his comments on sex in marriage in I Corinthians 7.3 are about a husband and wife giving each other their debt/and doing their duty. not about delighting in the sexual desire and sexual passion they feel for one another’s bodies.
                              Again not ONE word about desire or passion being unacceptable within the context of marriage. Game, set and match...
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Slavery was still going strong until Christians finally banded together to stop it. Look at any abolitionist movement and you'll find Christians in the forefront. That is an indisputable fact that you can either ignore or seek to minimize but that won't alter reality. Without Christians leading the way there is no telling how widespread slavery would still be
                                What do you mean the Christians “banded together to stop slavery”? The whole of society was a Christian majority in and of itself. And it was THIS society that implemented and maintained slavery for several centuries - there were no anti-slavery Christians banding together then. It only changed as social values evolved and changed.

                                And pointing out that abortion is widely accepted today, resulting in the murder of, according to the World Health Organization (WHO),125,000 innocent lives each and every day is exactly what future generations will condemn us for.
                                The World Health Organization is referring to terminations of pregnancies, NOT “murder” – the emotive spin is yours alone. And it’s inapplicable in that the vast majority of abortions occur during the first trimester – i.e., before the fetus has developed an effectively functioning brain and is a non-viable entity outside the womb.

                                ďHe felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.Ē - Douglas Adams.

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