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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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  • #61
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Right so you are only speaking of Atheists who were raised, generally, in the Western Christian tradition. Got it...
    Why would you view indoctrinated people as a source of authority on what is logical and rational? They are the exact opposite.

    Also, for the umpteenth time, the Western tradition predates Christian. Western civilization traces its roots to the Greeks and (pre-Christian) Romans.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      And if are going to watch a debate watch the Erik Wielenberg one since he is a moral realist.
      It seems he's actually a literal Platonist. Wow. I didn't know any of those seriously existed. That is a strange choice of person to be debating because his views will be so far off ordinary atheist views. It's a bit like picking a Jehovah's Witness to defend a Christian position in a debate.

      Let me be clear that I don't view "moral realism" as being equated with literal Platonism in general. When I say that I think morality is real in the same sense that distance is real, I mean both are abstract measurable relations among physical things, and I don't believe either of those exists in any special Platonic realm. What I mean is that given a definition of a unit of measurement (e.g. a yard), multiple 3rd party can measure the distance between two things and agree on what that distance is, and given a definition of a unit of moral measurement (e.g. doing unto others as you would have them do to oneself) multiple 3rd parties if they had access to the minds of the people involved could assess an action and agree as to whether the action was moral or not. To me, 'moral realism' thus means that moral claims have truth values in the same way distance has a truth value.

      And tell me where Craig is off.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iVyVJAMiOY
      I find Craig difficult to listen to (I find his intonation annoying and the fact that every single one of his arguments are wrong gets tedious after a while) but I endured a bit.

      Apart from his statements that Platonism is silly, which I agree with, I thought all of Craig's points were wrong.

      His claims and my comments:

      WLC: Theism provides a sound foundation for morality.
      SL: A thousand times no. I would note that when I did an undergrad philosophy course the lecturer implied that that Euthyphro's dilemma is really widely regarded among philosophers as proving that the existence of God has nothing to contribute to the topic of morality. I know it's really common on this forum for Christian posters to think they can say "but, aha I say God's character/nature is where morality comes from and thus escape Euthyphro's dilemma"... but the fact is that dodge is regarded by philosophers as having absolutely zero merit. I would say that the majority of philosophers who also happen to be Christians would agree Euthyphro's dilemma shows that theism doesn't provide the foundations for morality and that the two topics are largely unrelated. So WLC's claim here that theism provides some sort of foundation for morality would be shocking to most philosophers, and is a really really implausible/controversial claim.

      WLC: Anselm in his various ontological arguments viewed God's character is perfect goodness.
      SL: This was about the only reasonably true statement WLC makes in the section I listen to IMO. I would note that something else philosophers seem to be in almost unanimous agreement about is that the ontological argument fails, in every way, shape and form.

      WLC: If God exists, morality is objective
      SL: No.

      WLC: God gives commandments, which come from his character and hence aren't arbitrary. These commandments are thus moral obligations.
      SL: No they're not, he just made that claim up.

      In summary I regard every single individual part of WLC's argument about theism providing any sort of foundation for morality as being flawed and faulty. Obviously combining all the incorrect parts together, as he does, is just ridiculous.

      WLC: Atheism does provide a sound foundation for morality.
      SL: Well I think actually you can have one.

      WLC: Atheism has to find a 'transcendent' ground for moral objects and duties.
      SL: No it doesn't. His addition of 'transcendent' here is weird. Distance doesn't need a 'transcendent' unit of measure. Neither God, nor a Platonic Form of a yardstick need exist for me to use a ruler.

      WLC: Says opponent endorses Platonism with respect to moral values and goes on to argue against Platonism.
      SL: Okay, I actually agree with WLC here, Platonism is silly. Though as the Platonist subsequently points out in the debate, it's not more silly than theism, and many of the reasons WLC rightly gives for it being silly apply equally to theism.

      And that was where my will to listen to people say dumb things ran out. WLC didn't give any arguments at all that in any way made me think theism plausibly provided a foundation for morality, nor any arguments at all that made me think atheism didn't.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by seer View Post

        Sorry, any one who rejects logic-based systems and rational thought is a non-starter with me.
        Thanks. I get it. Thanks for making that clear.

        Comment


        • #64
          To Starlight,

          Thank you for your reply to the opening post. I find your posts very insightful.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post

            And that was where my will to listen to people say dumb things ran out. WLC didn't give any arguments at all that in any way made me think theism plausibly provided a foundation for morality, nor any arguments at all that made me think atheism didn't.
            Let's go over this in the new thread. And forgive me if I don't take your word on your overview
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              Why would you view indoctrinated people as a source of authority on what is logical and rational? They are the exact opposite.

              Also, for the umpteenth time, the Western tradition predates Christian. Western civilization traces its roots to the Greeks and (pre-Christian) Romans.
              Except on moral questions Western civilization was a washed in Christian ethics. You can't logically divorce them.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Except on moral questions Western civilization was a washed in Christian ethics.
                Not true. I've given you before a list of the most famous moral philosophers in Western history, and only 1 of them was Christian. In Western civilization nearly all major contributions to moral philosophy were not done in the context of Christianity.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  Not true. I've given you before a list of the most famous moral philosophers in Western history, and only 1 of them was Christian. In Western civilization nearly all major contributions to moral philosophy were not done in the context of Christianity.
                  Role of Christianity in civilization

                  Christianity has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; an inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and an influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes towards vice and virtue in diverse fields. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

                  The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The medieval cathedrals remain among the most iconic architectural feats produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[2] The university is generally regarded[3][4] as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting, born from Cathedral schools.[5] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Liszt, and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

                  The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the most important sources of modern notions of human rights and the welfare commonly provided by governments in the West. Long-held Christian teachings on sexuality, marriage, and family life have also been influential and controversial in recent times. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice,[6] infanticide and polygamy.[7]:309 Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning marital infidelity, divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), and abortion.[8]:104 While official Church teaching[9]:61 considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.[10] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through and as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

                  Christians have made a myriad contributions to human progress in a broad and diverse range of fields, both historically and in modern times, including the science and technology,[11][12][13][14][15]medicine,[16]fine arts and architecture,[17][18][19] politics, literatures,[19]Music,[19]philanthropy, philosophy,[20][21][22]:15ethics,[23]theatre and business.[24][25][18][26] According to 100 Years of Nobel Prizes a review of Nobel prizes award between 1901 and 2000 reveals that (65.4%) of Nobel Prizes Laureates, have identified Christianity in its various forms as their religious preference.[27]Eastern Christians (particularly Nestorian Christians) have also contributed to the Arab Islamic Civilization during the Ummayad and the Abbasid periods by translating works of Greek philosophers to Syriac and afterwards to Arabic.[28][29][30] They also excelled in philosophy, science, theology and medicine.[31][32]

                  Common criticisms of Christianity include oppression of women, condemnation of homosexuality, colonialism, and various other cases of violence. Christian ideas have been used both to support and end slavery as an institution. Criticism of Christianity has come from the different religious and non-religious groups around the world, some of whom were themselves Christians.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_o...n_civilization
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by seer View Post

                      That is silly, there is no standard atheistic view on morality or nihilism. Just individual opinions of atheists.
                      I agree, the idea represented in the OP that atheism = lack of moral compass and atheism = nihilism is silly because both exist entirely independent of atheism.
                      Last edited by Psychic Missile; 04-13-2021, 12:24 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post

                        I agree, the idea represented in the OP that atheism = lack of moral compass and atheism = nihilism is silly because both exist entirely independent of atheism.
                        I generally agree, but logically I don't see how an atheist could be anything but an existential nihilist.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                          ...and I recognize that I have no moral obligation in the least to follow any laws.

                          I speak for myself here. I have no moral compass now. There are no Absolutes. Everything is relative. We're all just dust in the wind.

                          What shall I do today? What shall I do?

                          I'd like to go to the beach for a month or two, but something is telling me that it's best I go to work instead.

                          Since nothing really matters anymore, does anyone have pointers on how to navigate here on earth without a moral compass?

                          Thank you.
                          I'm a Deist but I might be able to help you.

                          Choose a species of bird or beast, Machinist.
                          Study how it lives.
                          Does it follow laws?
                          Does it follow Nature's calls?
                          What does it do today?

                          And what is a 'moral compass', please?
                          Can you explain that?

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                            ...and I recognize that I have no moral obligation in the least to follow any laws.
                            If you should be a Christian, what laws would you follow that an atheist might not?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                              One piece of advice has been around since before biblical times, and seems to be a pretty good rule of thumb. Treat other people the way you would like to be treated yourself.
                              Hear hear!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by eider View Post

                                If you should be a Christian, what laws would you follow that an atheist might not?
                                I can't think of any.

                                Comment

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