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What is your major malfunction...

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  • What is your major malfunction...

    As an unbeliever what is your single greatest objection to Christianity. I'm not looking for a litany of objections, just the single most important one to you. Perhaps me and other Christians here can provide reasonable answers. Please let's keep it civil...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    As an unbeliever what is your single greatest objection to Christianity. I'm not looking for a litany of objections, just the single most important one to you. Perhaps me and other Christians here can provide reasonable answers. Please let's keep it civil...
    I don't "object" to Christianity in the sense of wanting to get rid of it.

    I just don't believe the things one would need to believe in order to be a Christian, in particular the existence of any sort of deity (or anything else supernatural, for that matter).

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Stoic View Post

      I don't "object" to Christianity in the sense of wanting to get rid of it.

      I just don't believe the things one would need to believe in order to be a Christian, in particular the existence of any sort of deity (or anything else supernatural, for that matter).
      So you are a materialist. Why?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        So you are a materialist. Why?
        I would describe myself as a naturalist or physicalist, though I don't mind materialist as long as it is seen as a synonym for physicalist, and not to take cheap shots like "what about time and space?"

        As to why, I would say parsimony. I don't see a reason (yet) to postulate the existence of anything that isn't subject to natural laws.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Stoic View Post

          I would describe myself as a naturalist or physicalist, though I don't mind materialist as long as it is seen as a synonym for physicalist, and not to take cheap shots like "what about time and space?"

          As to why, I would say parsimony. I don't see a reason (yet) to postulate the existence of anything that isn't subject to natural laws.
          Isn't that the problem though? How did natural laws come into being in the first place? I would say our knowledge is way to limited to make a claim of parsimony.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Isn't that the problem though? How did natural laws come into being in the first place?
            If one postulates that natural laws were created by some omniscient, omnipotent deity, one is left with the problem of explaining how the deity came into being in the first place.

            One could say that the deity just always existed, and created natural laws, but that's less parsimonious than saying that the natural laws just always existed.

            I would say our knowledge is way to limited to make a claim of parsimony.
            Parsimony is not affected by how limited our knowledge is. It's true that as we gain knowledge, it may turn out that what was the most parsimonious explanation is wrong, but that is always the case. We can only judge various explanations by what we know now.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              As an unbeliever what is your single greatest objection to Christianity. I'm not looking for a litany of objections, just the single most important one to you. Perhaps me and other Christians here can provide reasonable answers. Please let's keep it civil...
              To which brand of Christianity/theism are you referring?
              "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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              • #8
                The lack of good evidence.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                  If one postulates that natural laws were created by some omniscient, omnipotent deity, one is left with the problem of explaining how the deity came into being in the first place.

                  One could say that the deity just always existed, and created natural laws, but that's less parsimonious than saying that the natural laws just always existed.
                  Except as far as we know, all natural laws and the universe had a beginning. And there is good reason to believe that matter and energy are not past eternal, nor can they be.

                  Inflationary spacetimes are not past-complete

                  https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0110012


                  Parsimony is not affected by how limited our knowledge is. It's true that as we gain knowledge, it may turn out that what was the most parsimonious explanation is wrong, but that is always the case. We can only judge various explanations by what we know now.
                  Except you can not demonstrate that the non-rational forces of nature could or did create a precise intelligible cosmos.

                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                    The lack of good evidence.
                    Isn't what one considers good evidence, or evidence at all, rather subjective?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seer View Post

                      Isn't what one considers good evidence, or evidence at all, rather subjective?
                      Personal experience is bad evidence for anyone not directly involved. Logical arguments being good evidence is mostly dependent upon whether they rely on a fallacy. There's not a ton of wiggle room as long as involved parties care about the evidence to begin with.

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                      • #12
                        original sin....
                        ...not on theological grounds---the premise perhaps works within the Christian story....but rather on ethico-moral grounds....
                        as far as I understand it...all humanity is sinful (because of Adam/Eve) but God-man sacrifice potentially erases this sin?...if and only if one believes in Christianity?....If so, then this leaves an interesting ambiguity.

                        A paradigm/world-view that sees all humanity as bad/sinful is problematic in terms of philosophy of justice which posits that everyone is innocent until proven guilty (beyond a reasonable doubt).
                        Also--if only a certain group of people (Christians) are entitled to forgiveness and all others are not---it potentially excuses the application of justice as harsh and unforgiving. It further creates and excuses an "us vs them" tribal/parochial attitude that can too easily lead to harm to humanity. (...and has done so in history)

                        One could argue that Christian beliefs are removed from the secular philosophies of ethical/moral engagement therefore it does not matter.....but perhaps there are ways that Christians can harmonize their premises to better contain/manage potential harm and to align with philosophies of "justice with mercy"?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          As an unbeliever what is your single greatest objection to Christianity. I'm not looking for a litany of objections, just the single most important one to you. Perhaps me and other Christians here can provide reasonable answers. Please let's keep it civil...
                          I believe that Jesus lived on, and got clear away.
                          The Jesus that caused uproar in the Temple against the corrupt priesthood, and who the people loved so, Jesus son of the Father.
                          So I cannot be a Christian.

                          Oh....... and that isn't a malfunction.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            As an unbeliever what is your single greatest objection to Christianity. I'm not looking for a litany of objections, just the single most important one to you. Perhaps me and other Christians here can provide reasonable answers. Please let's keep it civil...
                            I don't 'object' to Christianity- I largely don't care about it at all, provided it stays between you and your god it makes no difference to me whatsoever, though I do find the concept rather peculiar and sometimes arrogant (the whole universe was created for a species of bald, brainy ape on some backwater planet in an otherwise unremarkable galaxy of many).

                            As for list of reasons - no reason to believe otherwise seems to be the most obvious, and many years on here amongst believers of many stripes has utterly failed to convince me to change that position.
                            Last edited by EvoUK; 04-04-2021, 08:42 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seer View Post

                              Except as far as we know, all natural laws and the universe had a beginning. And there is good reason to believe that matter and energy are not past eternal, nor can they be.

                              Inflationary spacetimes are not past-complete

                              https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0110012
                              All that tells me is that the laws of physics probably haven't always been exactly as they appear to be now.

                              Which doesn't really surprise me.

                              Except you can not demonstrate that the non-rational forces of nature could or did create a precise intelligible cosmos.
                              It's not necessary that the entire infinite universe be intelligible. Only a tiny fraction of it.

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