What is your major malfunction...

[seer]

I believe we were discussing Christianity...but I will answer anyway....

1) Islam has the concept of "Fitra" =all humanity is born innocent.
"Fitra" or "fitrah" (Arabic: فطرة; ALA-LC: fiṭrah) is the state of purity and innocence Muslims believe all humans to be born with. Fitra is an Arabic word that is usually translated as "original disposition," "natural constitution," or "innate nature."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitra#...e%20nature.%22

2) Humanity is a work-in-progress and will make mistakes in the course of their lifetime---if they repent and ask for forgiveness, God is most compassionate, most merciful. Perfection is not a requirement for being human or humane.....

3) God is most fair and just. It is not for humans to worry about or judge who goes to heaven or hell---only God knows.

4) "Islam" that has fallen away from Tawheed (One God/Unity) can be divisive and harmful. (but that can apply to any philosophy/ideology)...If one keeps the brotherhood of all humanity as a founding premise...then it can lead to benefit---for Islam as well as for all humanity.

5) No.
Monotheists that have been given "scriptures" are called "the people of the book" in the Quran.
Infidel is a Christian term---
Infidel (literally "unfaithful") is a term used in certain religions for those accused of unbelief in the central tenets of their own religion, for members of another religion, or for the irreligious.^[1][2]

Infidel is an ecclesiastical term in Christianity around which the Church developed a body of theology that deals with the concept of infidelity, which makes a clear differentiation between those who were baptized and followed the teachings of the Church versus those who are outside the faith.^[3] The term infidel was used by Christians to describe those perceived as the enemies of Christianity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel

Stop rambling siam, Islam is about us and them as any other religion. And the fact you do have a hell. And you do believe that all men sin. So stop throwing stones...

[seer]

You have done. For many years actually. That's why we've had to legalise gay marriage, expand voting rights and all the rest of it. You make it sound like 'you lot' haven't had your time in the sun or something.

I don't know what that has to do with voting rights, but I'm glad you agree we have the right to effect political discourse according to our beliefs.

I don't think your god exists, so this sentence doesn't make sense outside of your belief system.

Your beliefs regarding sin are of no interest to me, and I haven't chided you due to that lack of interest. I'm not Christian, why would I care one way or the other about Christian concepts? I don't care about Hindu gods either, yours and theirs are inseparable in my mind. Just another religion, albeit a majority one in my culture as well as yours.

I was referring to the contradiction I often find in atheistic thinking. Christians make too much of man and not enough.

Great you happened to be born into the one true religion™ though. *Phew*

Yes I thank the saints of the past for making that possible.

Ultimately, my rejection of an immortal soul (whatever that is in practice) has no more meaning than your belief in it. Your belief has no more impact on me than my lack of it does on you.

Except me being wrong is of no real consequence in the end, you being wrong could be of great consequence.

[siam]

1) Do you believe that all men sin?
2) Do you believe there are morally perfect people around?
3) Does your god save all men? Or do many end up in Jahannam?
4) How is Islam not us and them?
5) Am I not and infidel?

I believe we were discussing Christianity...but I will answer anyway....

1) Islam has the concept of "Fitra" =all humanity is born innocent.
"Fitra" or "fitrah" (Arabic: فطرة; ALA-LC: fiṭrah) is the state of purity and innocence Muslims believe all humans to be born with. Fitra is an Arabic word that is usually translated as "original disposition," "natural constitution," or "innate nature."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitra#...e%20nature.%22

2) Humanity is a work-in-progress and will make mistakes in the course of their lifetime---if they repent and ask for forgiveness, God is most compassionate, most merciful. Perfection is not a requirement for being human or humane.....

3) God is most fair and just. It is not for humans to worry about or judge who goes to heaven or hell---only God knows.

4) "Islam" that has fallen away from Tawheed (One God/Unity) can be divisive and harmful. (but that can apply to any philosophy/ideology)...If one keeps the brotherhood of all humanity as a founding premise...then it can lead to benefit---for Islam as well as for all humanity.

5) No.
Monotheists that have been given "scriptures" are called "the people of the book" in the Quran.
Infidel is a Christian term---
Infidel (literally "unfaithful") is a term used in certain religions for those accused of unbelief in the central tenets of their own religion, for members of another religion, or for the irreligious.^[1][2]

Infidel is an ecclesiastical term in Christianity around which the Church developed a body of theology that deals with the concept of infidelity, which makes a clear differentiation between those who were baptized and followed the teachings of the Church versus those who are outside the faith.^[3] The term infidel was used by Christians to describe those perceived as the enemies of Christianity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel

[EvoUK]

So as citizens we don't get to address the laws of our land according to our beliefs, but you get to according to your beliefs?

You have done. For many years actually. That's why we've had to legalise gay marriage, expand voting rights and all the rest of it. You make it sound like 'you lot' haven't had your time in the sun or something.

I don't know if the whole universe was created just for us. But you think it is arrogant to say we are special to God

I don't think your god exists, so this sentence doesn't make sense outside of your belief system.

but chide us when we say all men are sinners.

Your beliefs regarding sin are of no interest to me, and I haven't chided you due to that lack of interest. I'm not Christian, why would I care one way or the other about Christian concepts? I don't care about Hindu gods either, yours and theirs are inseparable in my mind. Just another religion, albeit a majority one in my culture as well as yours.

Great you happened to be born into the one true religion™ though. *Phew*

I'm not sure your rejection has any meaning, save for your immortal soul.

Ultimately, my rejection of an immortal soul (whatever that is in practice) has no more meaning than your belief in it. Your belief has no more impact on me than my lack of it does on you.

[Stoic]

Big bang cosmology is the best explanation we have and that leads to a finite universe.

Big bang cosmology is consistent with either a finite or an infinite universe.

I suspect many scientists would say that whether the universe is finite or infinite is not a scientific question, since there is no way to empirically settle it.

[Stoic]

Seems like if you have an infinite universe, an actual infinite, then basically anything that is possible is certain to have occurred somewhere in that universe. Including God. Therefore an infinite universe would require God existing.

In fact, anything that is possible is certain to have occurred an infinite number of times, so I guess there would be an infinite number of Gods.

[Sparko]

Seems like if you have an infinite universe, an actual infinite, then basically anything that is possible is certain to have occurred somewhere in that universe. Including God. Therefore an infinite universe would require God existing.

[seer]

It's easier for me to believe that a precise, intelligible universe could have been formed by non-rational forces, than to believe that an intelligent creator could just happen to exist.

So matter and energy just happened to exist?

You may be pretty sure that the universe is finite. Cosmologists aren't.

Big bang cosmology is the best explanation we have and that leads to a finite universe.

[Stoic]

In either case something has to be past eternal. Either matter and energy or a God. And I see no reason to assume that a precise, intelligible could have been formed by non-rational forces any more than the idea of a tornado going through a junk yard could create a working calculator, or even a simple abacus.

It's easier for me to believe that a precise, intelligible universe could have been formed by non-rational forces, than to believe that an intelligent creator could just happen to exist.

Of course, it's even easier to believe that the universe is infinite, and that only a tiny fraction of it is precise and intelligible.

Well we are pretty sure that it is finite, no evidence that it is infinite.

You may be pretty sure that the universe is finite. Cosmologists aren't.

[seer]

I'm not sure what it would mean for the cosmos to be "rational", but even if all of the universe is intelligible, it makes as much sense to assume that it was birthed by non-rational forces as to assume that a rational, intending, force has just always existed.

In either case something has to be past eternal. Either matter and energy or a God. And I see no reason to assume that a precise, intelligible could have been formed by non-rational forces any more than the idea of a tornado going through a junk yard could create a working calculator, or even a simple abacus.

Except you, we, don't know that.

Well we are pretty sure that it is finite, no evidence that it is infinite.

[Stoic]

Except you, we, don't know that. There is no evidence that the universe is past eternal.

It's not possible for there to be evidence that the universe is past eternal. So it doesn't make sense to conclude that it is not past eternal based on the lack of such evidence.

So back to the question: what makes more sense, that a rational, intelligible cosmos was birthed by non-rational forces or by a rational, intending, force.

I'm not sure what it would mean for the cosmos to be "rational", but even if all of the universe is intelligible, it makes as much sense to assume that it was birthed by non-rational forces as to assume that a rational, intending, force has just always existed.

The universe is not infinite,

Except you, we, don't know that.

and what we know of it is intelligible.

If it wasn't, we wouldn't be here discussing it.

[seer]

original sin....
...not on theological grounds---the premise perhaps works within the Christian story....but rather on ethico-moral grounds....
as far as I understand it...all humanity is sinful (because of Adam/Eve) but God-man sacrifice potentially erases this sin?...if and only if one believes in Christianity?....If so, then this leaves an interesting ambiguity.

A paradigm/world-view that sees all humanity as bad/sinful is problematic in terms of philosophy of justice which posits that everyone is innocent until proven guilty (beyond a reasonable doubt).
Also--if only a certain group of people (Christians) are entitled to forgiveness and all others are not---it potentially excuses the application of justice as harsh and unforgiving. It further creates and excuses an "us vs them" tribal/parochial attitude that can too easily lead to harm to humanity. (...and has done so in history)

One could argue that Christian beliefs are removed from the secular philosophies of ethical/moral engagement therefore it does not matter.....but perhaps there are ways that Christians can harmonize their premises to better contain/manage potential harm and to align with philosophies of "justice with mercy"?

Do you believe that all men sin? Do you believe there are morally perfect people around? Does your god save all men? Or do many end up in Jahannam? How is Islam not us and them? Am I not and infidel?

[seer]

I don't 'object' to Christianity- I largely don't care about it at all, provided it stays between you and your god it makes no difference to me whatsoever...

So as citizens we don't get to address the laws of our land according to our beliefs, but you get to according to your beliefs?

though I do find the concept rather peculiar and sometimes arrogant (the whole universe was created for a species of bald, brainy ape on some backwater planet in an otherwise unremarkable galaxy of many).

I don't know if the whole universe was created just for us. But you think it is arrogant to say we are special to God, but chide us when we say all men are sinners. That somehow undermines our precious self esteem.

As for list of reasons - no reason to believe otherwise seems to be the most obvious, and many years on here amongst believers of many stripes has utterly failed to convince me to change that position.

I'm not sure your rejection has any meaning, save for your immortal soul.

[seer]

All that tells me is that the laws of physics probably haven't always been exactly as they appear to be now.

Which doesn't really surprise me.

Except you, we, don't know that. There is no evidence that the universe is past eternal. So back to the question: what makes more sense, that a rational, intelligible cosmos was birthed by non-rational forces or by a rational, intending, force.

It's not necessary that the entire infinite universe be intelligible. Only a tiny fraction of it.

The universe is not infinite, and what we know of it is intelligible.

[Stoic]

Except as far as we know, all natural laws and the universe had a beginning. And there is good reason to believe that matter and energy are not past eternal, nor can they be.

Inflationary spacetimes are not past-complete

https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0110012

All that tells me is that the laws of physics probably haven't always been exactly as they appear to be now.

Which doesn't really surprise me.

Except you can not demonstrate that the non-rational forces of nature could or did create a precise intelligible cosmos.

It's not necessary that the entire infinite universe be intelligible. Only a tiny fraction of it.