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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Stoic I gave you a link to two of the fathers of inflation theory (multiverse) and they are clear - physics puts and end to the idea a past eternal universe/multiverse. And we know that the second law of thermal dynamics is a feature of our universe. And it will run out of useable energy. Now there may be laws of physics that override these facts - but we don't know what they are of if they exist - it is a faith position on your part.
    No, a faith position would be the assumption that the laws of physics are complete as they are now understood, and that we'll never learn anything new.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Stoic View Post

      No, a faith position would be the assumption that the laws of physics are complete as they are now understood, and that we'll never learn anything new.
      No the faith position is your belief that laws exist that could override natural law as we understand it. Like voiding the second law of thermal dynamics. There is zero evidence that that is possible.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        No the faith position is your belief that laws exist that could override natural law as we understand it.
        If I was sure that laws exist that could override natural law as we understand it, that would be a faith position, just as much as being sure that natural laws do not exist that could override natural law as we understand it.

        The belief that such laws may or may not exist is the opposite of a faith position.

        Like voiding the second law of thermal dynamics. There is zero evidence that that is possible.
        The second law of thermodynamics is a statistical law. IOW, it is probabilistic. It is not impossible for it to be violated, and given enough time, it will be violated.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Stoic View Post

          If I was sure that laws exist that could override natural law as we understand it, that would be a faith position, just as much as being sure that natural laws do not exist that could override natural law as we understand it.

          The belief that such laws may or may not exist is the opposite of a faith position.
          Except you would need that position to suggest that matter and energy are past eternal or that the universe is infinite. Everything we know now says otherwise.



          The second law of thermodynamics is a statistical law. IOW, it is probabilistic. It is not impossible for it to be violated, and given enough time, it will be violated.
          Show me where, in a closed system, it is violated. Please be specific.

          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Except you would need that position to suggest that matter and energy are past eternal or that the universe is infinite. Everything we know now says otherwise.
            My position is that matter and energy may or may not be past eternal, and that the universe may or may not be infinite.

            Show me where, in a closed system, it is violated. Please be specific.
            In a closed system, you can count on the second law of thermodynamics never being violated. Unless, of course, you have an infinite amount of time...

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Stoic View Post

              My position is that matter and energy may or may not be past eternal, and that the universe may or may not be infinite.
              Do you agree that, presently, there is no evidence that they are either past eternal or infinite?


              In a closed system, you can count on the second law of thermodynamics never being violated. Unless, of course, you have an infinite amount of time...
              What does time have to do with it?

              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Do you agree that, presently, there is no evidence that they are either past eternal or infinite?
                I agree that there could not be any evidence that they are either past eternal or infinite, even if they are.

                What does time have to do with it?
                Anything that is possible, given enough time, will happen.

                It is possible for the second law of thermodynamics to be violated. It's just extremely improbable.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                  Anything that is possible, given enough time, will happen.

                  It is possible for the second law of thermodynamics to be violated. It's just extremely improbable.
                  Why do you say that? Is it just a guess? Perhaps there are impossible things...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by seer View Post

                    Why do you say that? Is it just a guess? Perhaps there are impossible things...
                    It's something I learned in a thermodynamics class in college. But you can find it online, too:

                    Source: https://opentextbc.ca/openstaxcollegephysics/chapter/statistical-interpretation-of-entropy-and-the-second-law-of-thermodynamics-the-underlying-explanation/#:~:text=Thus%20the%20second%20law%20of,in%20systems%20with%20greater%20entropy.

                    Thus the second law of thermodynamics is explained on a very basic level: entropy either remains the same or increases in every process. This phenomenon is due to the extraordinarily small probability of a decrease, based on the extraordinarily larger number of microstates in systems with greater entropy. Entropy can decrease, but for any macroscopic system, this outcome is so unlikely that it will never be observed.

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Stoic View Post


                      In fact, anything that is possible is certain to have occurred an infinite number of times, so I guess there would be an infinite number of Gods.
                      well it isn't possible for there to be an infinite number of Gods because God is infinite himself.

                      So, can we sign you up as a believer now?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                        well it isn't possible for there to be an infinite number of Gods because God is infinite himself.

                        So, can we sign you up as a believer now?
                        In the context of "anything that's possible will happen", what's generally meant by "possible" is any configuration of particles/energy fields that doesn't violate physical laws. God isn't usually defined that way.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I'm not a materialist and am totally open to the possibility of things outside this universe, and tend to believe in an afterlife etc. I could be some kind of philosophical buddhist no problem.

                          But, compared to some sort of ideal rational and contemplative zen religion, Christianity is... weird and arbitrary. Looking across the whole of the bible, the story Christianity has a lot of plot holes. Its like if you got all the rejected writers from failed Hollywood TV series together and got them to write a comedy of errors...

                          God selects this arbitrary race of people (Israelites), and gives them a whole bunch of crazy and arbitrary rules (The Law), only for that all to become irrelevant in the next season of the show because the writers move onto a different idea, of Jesus the Savior, but then it's not clear what he was supposed to be saving them from, so they eventually decide it was God he was saving people from, and then the idea is we have to all believe in Christianity for his magical sacrifice to work etc, oh and the arbitrary race of people doesn't need to follow the arbitrary rules anymore because. No part of it has a coherent plot line, nor does it speak to any actual issues actual people tend to have. And a rather fundamental problem is that none of it has any evidence for it.

                          As far as the spectrum of religions go, from plausible to completely silly, Christianity seems very close to the completely silly end of the spectrum. Barely any parts of it make any sense in light of the other parts, and the evidence for all parts of it is zero.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                            In the context of "anything that's possible will happen", what's generally meant by "possible" is any configuration of particles/energy fields that doesn't violate physical laws. God isn't usually defined that way.
                            physical laws can even be different somewhere in an infinite universe. And even in our present local universe, the infinite God is possible, so if the universe is infinite, he will exist. So will just about anything you can imagine. There will even be an infinite number of exact duplicates of our own known area of space. And infinite copies of you and me. And versions where you don't exist, or I don't. A universe where Star Trek is real, one where magic works, etc.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              physical laws can even be different somewhere in an infinite universe. And even in our present local universe, the infinite God is possible, so if the universe is infinite, he will exist.
                              I can imagine an infinite universe without a God, so I'm afraid I doubt your logic.

                              So will just about anything you can imagine. There will even be an infinite number of exact duplicates of our own known area of space. And infinite copies of you and me. And versions where you don't exist, or I don't. A universe where Star Trek is real, one where magic works, etc.
                              Infinitely many copies of you and me, yes.

                              But I'm not sure about warp drives, transporters, and magic.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                                I can imagine an infinite universe without a God, so I'm afraid I doubt your logic.


                                Infinitely many copies of you and me, yes.

                                But I'm not sure about warp drives, transporters, and magic.
                                Magic could just be the result of some physical laws in another part of the galaxy. Heck what we do now would be magic to people of a few hundred years ago. Talking to people instantly across the planet on little magic boxes.

                                Also an infinite universe wouldn't be limited by your imagination, or mine. Infinite means that somewhere anything possible would have to happen. Which is why I think an actual physically infinitely extant universe is impossible. It's just too absurd.

                                Comment

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